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wikis, wiki people and wiki ideas
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WikiIndex talk:Community portal
archives of older talk pages:

Archive1 (2006), Archive2 (2007-2013)

Table of contents

Archive3 2014

[edit] Template:Size broken

Please investigate I don't know why or how--I can't seem to figure it out and I'm rapidly falling asleep. :-/ Koavf (talk) 06:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

That's because of the unexplained(?) disappearance of Semantic MediaWiki. Please see User talk:MarkDilley#Back-end changes ???? - confusion in the mad house. We could either poke someone with shell access (eg. Emufarmers or Ray King) to re-enable that extension or disable the feature completely (pro: can be done immediately & reduce server load; con: no more Semantic Forms :( ). --YiFei | talk 08:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I quite like the Semantic Forms :ppp. But yes, follow the discussion on Mark Dilley's talk page as linked above. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 15:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Computer // Computers

(moved from User talk:Koavf) (moved to -> Category talk:Computers)

[edit] Logos of Category:Dormant Wikis

I think it would be good practice to upload the logo picture file of any wiki that one categorizes as Dormant or worse. Because from there it is all to likely that the wiki will become inaccessible and so a logo that is only linked to will get lost.Manorainjan (talk) 13:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

That's an interesting thought. However, I'd be inclined not to agree – many wikis now automatically get stored by the InternetArchive WaybackMachine at Even if just the main page is archived, it will still store its logo, and we can hotlink to the logo on Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 20:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wiki Status / Template:WikiStatus

(moved from here: (talk) 15:39, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

The stati 'Dead' and 'Inactive' are the same! What is the use of that? And is there a reason to delete a wiki entry altogether? --Manorainjan (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Dead might mean the wiki is no longer there. Inactive might mean that it is dusty, in that case Needs Love is a better status. Again, you find inconsistencies... please feel free to offer solutions! :-) ~~ MarkDilley
OK, I changed the description of Inactive to something not active for a year or longer. Somebody has to confirm 1 Year and update the rest of languages somehow. I did en, de, es, and fr. sv I can't and the others I do not even know their names ;-)
BTW: I changed colour of Category:Dead to black B-) --Manorainjan (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
IIRC, from the may discussions from many different editors here, that Category:Inactive should be depreciated, and we just use Category:Dead for those permanently vanished, but use Category:Dormant. Whilst dictionary definition for 'inactive' might describe some wikis; ie: 'idle' - the literal meaning of 'inactive' is whereby there are short periods of - say downtime. Dictionary definition for general adjective of 'dormant' has two complimentary meanings - 1. "quiet and inactive, as in sleep", 2. "latent or inoperative". A further biological definition of 'dormant' means: "alive but in a resting torpid condition with no growth". So 'dormant' basically means a lack of any activity for longer periods of time - hence why I personally prefer Dormant over Inactive for wikis which are still reachable, but havn't been edited for a long time. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 12:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Great! Than lets check 850 Wikis and sort them into one of the not depriciated cats ;-)Manorainjan (talk) 16:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
After you, Sir! :ppp
I think most of those will have been categorised into Inactive by changing their respective infobox template from {{Wiki}} to {{Inactive}}. I could run a Special:ReplaceText to change the first line (which is what was done previously in reverse, albeit manually on a wiki-by-wiki basis) - but that would then leave the status field open to major errors. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 16:35, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, run the replace for the first line only. Whatever remains in the Category:Inactive will have to be checked manually. Actually I expect a resurrection 1 out of 100 ;-)Manorainjan (talk) 17:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

That isn't the best idea. If one does run the automated text replacement, they'll be no way of checking which ones are dead and which are dormant. I honestly think they all need to be done manually :((( Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 19:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
OK Manorainjan (talk) 19:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I knew it: Only 19 'inactive' entries checked and already found one active! :-)Manorainjan (talk) 21:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I second what Sean said, manual is the way to go. Regarding "Dead" vs. "Inactive", no consensus was ever established on which to use. We've been using both simultaneously. I again reiterate that we should NOT populate active categories with dead wikis! So, since you are changing these wikis over from the Inactive template to the regular Wiki template with a "Dead" status, please blank the main topic parameter. Thanks! --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 01:35, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
So, You reiterate we should....not...Better You substantiate with arguments. I do not agree with that. To shift from inactive to dead is not a loss of information but a clarification. The 'blanking' of category information is a loss of information. Then one could delete the entries of dead wikis as well. But I understood, that I do not have a licence to kill here. Userpages of spammers get deleted but no wiki entries ever. If an entry should be preserved it should also be traceable. So, cats should remain connected with them. There is no use of not killing the entry if I kill the information that leads to the entry. So, what is so bad about this 'population'?Manorainjan (talk) 01:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that an index of dead wikis is about as useful as a phone book from 1965. It's of historical interest, but little practical use. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 02:10, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I do keep old phone books. ;-) In fact it is a speciality of my home town to issue an address book. I collect those of different years and I use them once in a while. I'm paying prices for really old ones. I'm afraid Your phone-book allegory did not serve Your purpose very well because real phone books take real space which kept category tags do not take at all.Manorainjan (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
That said, I am in favor of keeping listings for dead wikis. It shows how hard it is to keep one going, how many fall by the wayside, and what topics have sprung up over time. I'm just not in favor of including dead wikis in categories. This has been status quo here for years. That's not to say that we can't change it, but should we? --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 02:16, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
So again You iterate Your distaste for leaving the dead wikis in their categories. But where is the argument to act upon? In order to delete or hide information in a wiki one needs quite a good argument. That should be more than "I do not see the use". You need to explain the specific danger or burden of relatively high weight. A distaste will not do.Manorainjan (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Manorainjan – I've got other work to do right now, so I'll try and answer your concerns later today. Prod me if I forget! Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 11:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] MarvelZuvembies concerns

You may well be right that no 'formal' concensus has ever been reached over the Dead vs Inactive debate (but then we arn't Wikipedia!). However, even going back to 2006 I noticed some of the founding editors of WikiIndex questioning the wisdom of using the term 'inactive' (and the categorisation of the same) for genuinely dead wiki. I have had MANY other editors question me (either on my or their talk page, or maybe on the category or template talk page) over the same issue. It seems very clear to me that this issue needs to be answered one way or the other. I would have to say that there is maybe a kind of 'organic' concensus to support much more clarity over this; and being as Mark tells everyone to BeBold (and indeed, above in this very conversation, he states NeedsLove is more appropriate than Inactive) — I have done just that!

Re the 'Dead' issue — I have never found any previous concensus on the need to basically obliterate all identifying features of a dead wiki – such as its wiki engine, language, etc. I am especially concerned that the present way also assigns both its logo and its subject matter into Room 101!!!! Our current way of identifying 'Inactive' wikis (which use Template:Inactive) is about as useful as an ashtray on a MotoGP motorbike! The name of the wiki, with NO other identifying features – what use is that? It is also massively biased towards Wikia wikis – those never die, they just fester and rot into eternity – but are (now) being categorised into Category:Dormant. Whereas, other smaller wiki farms might not have the resources to keep abandoned wiki alive are forced to delete them – hence Category:Dead.

I also have very deep concerns about deleting the subject matter from dead wiki – what is the rationale for that????? BTW, I'm not having a personal attack at you MarvelZuvembie – I'm just tired and frustrated on why we seem to keep going back to the lowest common, historical denominator! I have massive respect for your input here. :)))) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 11:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

No worries. I didn't take it as a personal attack. :-) I was being fairly blunt in my statement of my concerns. This is a small enough group and we've been around each other for a while, so I didn't feel a particular need to sugarcoat it.
As far as the previous practice of removing all categories from dead wikis, I assure you that it is there. When I started doing that, I was imitating what had gone on before. In fact, it is intrinsic to the very template. Switching to the Inactive template will remove these wikis from most categories, except for "dead wikis."
For me, the more important question is, what do we want to do going forward? Again, to reiterate the joke for those who haven't seen it, including dead wikis in category lists is about as useful as keeping around a phone book from 1965. How frustrating is it, when looking for a particular topic, to click on several category members and find that none the wikis in that category are currently active. I don't object to changing our minds (or, if you prefer, settling our minds), but I thought before we go about doing a massive overhaul of WikiIndex, we might want to talk about it. I know, too late, it's already begun. ;-)
In practical terms, it wouldn't be so bad to include dead wikis in categories. At least it shows in the infobox that they are dead. (It might be good to highlight that fact a little more clearly, perhaps with a bold header or footer?) And it does give a sense of historical interest in a topic when you included the dead wikis along with the live ones. Also, most categories here aren't so huge that you would have to click through several dead wikis to find a live one. So, I can see arguments for both ways of doing things. Previously, there had been some question as to whether or not to keep dead wikis on the index at all, but most of us (myself included) favor keeping them around.
So for me the question becomes what we see as the more important purpose of WikiIndex: is it a directory or is it a reference guide? I believe using the Inactive template furthers the first purpose, while merely changing the status to Dead favors the second. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 19:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Inactive

(moved from Manorainjan (talk) 15:43, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Inactive boilerplate is not marked as depreciated. WikiIndex:Community portal shows 'Inactive' in the right column under Guidelines.Manorainjan (talk) 10:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I feel strongly that it need not be removed. ~~ MarkDilley

The problem that MarvelZuvembie is pointing out is the main problem. We do not want categories to contain dead/inactive wiki. For example, adding the inactive template here: AgileEdge Wiki takes away all the categories from the page except category inactive for those that want a record of wikis that have been. Having them in active categories doesn't help anyone. Changing the template is a simple edit, rather than removing all the categories. If we can find a solution to this issue in the framework of getting rid of template inactive, that would be a possible step. ~~ MarkDilley

You write "Having them in active categories doesn't help anyone."
  1. For one: What is an active category? I would say, that every category in which one can place an entry is an 'active' category. So, to call an category active does not bring us anywhere.
  2. Secondly no one can know what would be helpful for an other. The evidence about the total uselessness can not be supplied. But I can supply evidence for the opposite: Out of about every 20 Entries which I checked in order to remove the inactive tag I found a 'resurrected' wiki. I was never a supporter of the death penalty. I know, that things change. It may take time but it does. To leave informative entries about wikis which are dead for now will increase their chances for new live.
  3. It may be a annoyance to some of our visitors if they search trough the index and find every second entry in certain category to be dead. Rather than removing such entries from the category and render them unfindable I suggest to mark them in the list with a '†'. Like that they do not disturbe the ones who are looking for active wikis only.Manorainjan (talk) 19:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

For example of what I mean of Active having AgileEdge Wiki in Category:Wiki English is deceptive if it is a dead wiki. It is not a wiki any longer and it is not an english wiki. ~~ MarkDilley

So the language of the text in the archive changes from English to something else? ;-) And when my mother dies, she is not my mother any more? And when the Wiki dies, the entry about that Wiki is dead as well? I should remind You of the fact, that most Wikis are not telephone books. Most Wikis keep a lot of information about dead persons like: Now let us see the 'active' categories he (his entry) is in: {Kategorien: 1777 births 1855 deaths People from Braunschweig Deists 18th-century German mathematicians 19th-century German mathematicians Mental calculators Differential geometers German astronomers German Lutherans German physicists Optical physicists German scientists Number theorists People from Brunswick Recipients of the Copley Medal Recipients of the Pour le Mérite (civil class) Braunschweig University of Technology alumni University of Helmstedt alumni University of Göttingen alumni University of Göttingen faculty Members of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences Fellows of the Royal Society Corresponding Members of the St Petersburg Academy of Sciences Honorary Members of the St Petersburg Academy of Sciences Members of the Bavarian Maximilian Order for Science and Art Vesta} What do we learn from this? That en.wikipedia has the same problems as we have: double categories! (2*People from Braunschweig, my hometown ;-)Manorainjan (talk) 19:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I think we have to spend some time thinking about what it is we want here and what is the diff of our thinking around it.~~ MarkDilley
Ah, I see you are wanting to bring some Wikipedia thinking here. An idea of WikiIndex is that it is an active wiki of wiki. One of the compromises we made earlier on was to keep dead wiki but not put them in categories of active wiki. (I was on the side of keeping them, not so sure anymore!) That compromise was to put them in their own category (inactive) - dead was added later on and we never solved the duality of the problem that created. As with any wiki, we can change our mind, which I think would take a few more comments from active people - because we are not in majority agreement with this. :-) ~~ MarkDilley
Speaking directly to the issue of overlapping categories, I'd like to point out that we are not Wikipedia. There are no overcategorization or duplicate category rules in effect here. The object here is to make Wikis easy to find. With this in mind, some wikis may be included in both a category and its subcategory. While this may be messy from an administrative perspective, it is hopefully useful for navigation. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 20:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, if we start tallying numbers of dead wikis here, I'd like to point out that there are currently 132 wikis in the oft-forgotten Category:Cannot connect. --MarvelZuvembie (talk)

I think it's beneficial to keep the articles about dead wikis. One never knows when they might come to life again. Leucosticte (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I 100% subscribe to that! Therefore I'm still objecting Your deletion request of that Wiki which You (co)founded: But this Discussion was not about deleting Wiki entries. It is about the use of the template:Inactive. Manorainjan (talk) 08:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Back to the actual topic: While trying to find out about the history of this place I hat to come to SwitchWiki and changed status to Archived because it was. But the preceding Wiki which I only found by taking a detour to WikiIndex:History where it was mentioned, I found buried under the notorious Template:inactive, even though it is archived too and roots for our own history. There You can clearly see the nonsense of this template! This template turns our ambition to preserve Wiki history into a laugh! Manorainjan (talk) 09:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] deleted entry

Once upon a time the policy seemed to be to delete inactive Wikis... User talk:Peu#File:43 Best Blogs.gif and not every sysop knows about the current policy... So, before we finalize our thoughts about categories, the more fundamental policy regarding deletion or not should be agreed upon and communicated. Manorainjan (talk) 14:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

"Once upon a time the policy seemed to be to delete inactive Wikis... " -- I don't think that was ever the policy Manorainjian :-) ~~ MarkDilley
Mark is correct, we've never had a policy to delete dead wikis. What might have happened in this particular instance is that may have been a casualty of the server crash way back when :-? Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 14:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
So then, where is this entry, if not deleted? User_talk:DavidCary#The_ACC_Bible_Quizzing_WikiManorainjan (talk) 15:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Sean ponders "What might have happened in this particular instance is that may have been a casualty of the server crash way back when." ~~ MarkDilley
May it be, that this Wiki got deleted too? AWikiLogo.JPGManorainjan (talk) 19:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I could imagine that a server crash deleted that wiki as well. My reasoning is that it was input in May 2006, 4 months after creation of wiki. ~~ MarkDilley
Please be more precise. 'creation of wiki' refers to which Wiki? When was this crash? Was it before or after May 2006? Manorainjan (talk) 20:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Can't be more precise. I do know several years ago (4-5) we had a server crash and once in a while we find things missing. (Creation of the wiki that would use the wiki logo you are referring.) ~~ MarkDilley

[edit] Clientèle

It appears to me, that it is not so clear for many for whom this Wiki should be of use.

  1. People who look for answers in a specific topic and therefore look for a specialized Wiki
  2. Wiki-people from other parts of the Wikisphere who are looking for new field of activity
  3. Wiki-traveler on a WikiTourBus-Stop
  4. People with too much time like You an me ;-)
  5. Wiki-refugees looking for asylum
  6. Sociopath, SPAMer and SCAMer looking for new victims
  7. Philanthropist looking for worthy projects
  8. Sociologist studying dynamics of the web 2.0
  9. ....

In how far can we foresee what will be of use and what not? Manorainjan (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki engine?

I assume that on a change took place which caused some or all Wikis hosted there to change to other URLs and a specific engine. But I have no clue what the name of that engine is. BackupPC wiki is an example for such Wiki. Also I would not know how to find the afflicted pages.Manorainjan (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The wiki engine is likely a sub-project of Allura. I'll work on It. --YiFei | talk 14:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Created – Category:Apache Allura :) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Private

Moved to -> Category talk:Wiki Status

[edit] Template:Whois

Template:Whois – Does anybody knows, what this is about and how it works? Manorainjan (talk) 21:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's a link to find where an IP address originates from. Eg. whois: --YiFei | talk 23:54, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Informing the entries

Currently I'm adding German Wikis. And in case of new entries I inform the people of that Wiki that their Wiki is now on our Index. I think that should be the general rule to tell them they are indexed here. Not only because maybe they do not want to be indexed ;-) Rather because they got a chance to update their entry themselves. This could also generate new users, active ones. Manorainjan (talk) 23:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit disappointed about the total lack if feedback on this idea. Was such discussed any time before? Manorainjan (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Welcoming is roughly the idea, I support it. ~~ MarkDilley

In the turn of attempting to create new entries and to fill the structured data and in connection with the above I found that it would help to have an account on the new Wiki, because many of them are not Category:OpenEdit. Often one can not communicate with any person on that wiki without opening an account, because most do not fill 'About', 'Impressum' or so. But on the other hand nobody wants to create hundreds of personal accounts all over the wikisphere. So I thought it may be a solution to open formal, impersonal accounts like ''. What Do You think? Of course they should all have the same password ;-) And who will get to know this? And what kind of eMail might get connected to this and how to manage an email account collectively for purpose of email-verification mails? Manorainjan (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting idea, can using one of the throw away email systems work? ~~ MarkDilley
I expect, that over time, means 5 years or so, it would result in thousand accounts. therefore I do not think one should throw away the connected email account. Why would one want to do so? Ad it would require another marker in our entry of the Wiki where an WikiIndex account was set up, like Category:OurAccount So that, in any case one has need to change something like connectes eMail address, one would find most of this accounts. BTW this creation of accounts with the Name or similar would increase the awareness of WikiIndex as an institution.Manorainjan (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
This proposal seams to be connected: (talk) 21:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Most people I index know about it, so yeah. Sweetie Belle (talk) 02:19, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate 'that' (informing WikiPeople about their pages here). I find that more necessary in case of people than in case of Wikis. With Wikis it is rather a tactical draw which is to benefit the quantitative and qualitative growth of WikiIndex. With People it got to do more with personality rights Manorainjan (talk) 22:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria for Wiki People pages

[edit] Consolidation

I shall move this discussion here: WikiIndex talk:Peoples Pages but keep the pointer so that this discussion may be 'endless' but not forgotten like most others.

[edit] ?

Should we have a criteria for wiki people pages, and if so, what should it be? Sweetie Belle (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I remember a discussion on this very issue a little while ago. I think there are two basic criteria. 1./ any person whom has made edits here on WikiIndex can have a page in this category, and 2./ any other person in the wiki-sphere who is either notable or interesting. So basically, we don't really want to be listing every single editor of every single wiki - as that will be a sure-fire way of readers of this WikiIndex category loosing interest in 'sifting the wheat from the chaff'. HTH :) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 12:37, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Besides Your excellent memory, is there any link to the then discussion or a help page where the result of that discussion was formulated?Manorainjan (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I saw that some discussion about that was going on here: Manorainjan (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Criteria I agree that there need to be some guidelines and "interesting" is a good start. Koavf (talk) 06:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Istn't interesting a totally subjective judgement? If interesting should become a criteria it needs criteria that define when somebody becomes interesting. So, it does not help, not even for a start. Otherwise the criteria was: "I found that person interesting, so I created the page." Manorainjan (talk) 08:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
We have discussed it before, although I don't have the link handy. At the time, my objection to creating pages for Wiki People other than oneself was that it is prone to abuse. As I recall, not everyone else felt the same way. I still have reservations about it, and indeed, there have been potentially libelous things written about Wiki People earlier this year. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 20:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
It is not whether or not to create peoples pages. We got peoples pages already and since long. The question is, what kind of people should get pages here. It is also not, what should be written on the page. That too is another discussion. Manorainjan (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
That said, I'm still missing ANY criteria here at all. Notability is similarly vague as 'interesting' is. For example: If we would set a criteria 'Any person who founded a Wiki which got at least 1.000 content pages and lasted at least a year' that would be 'criteria' not opinion. Verifiable facts, You know? And I did not mean to suggest this very criteria. It is only an example. I also did not mean to say it should be only one criteria or how many criteria any given candidate had to meet. I'm writing this only to demonstrate what criteria is in contradiction to opinion. Manorainjan (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Wiki People pages were originally generated by the people themselves. I think it should stay that way. That's my criteria. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
CoreyShields just asked me to delete his page, which he obviously did not create himself. So, it wasn't that way earlier either. Manorainjan (talk) 14:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
That at least would be a criteria, one criteria amongst many possible and certainly not usable as the only one. For example, if I conclude for me, that Lydia Pintscher should have a page here, because of her fascinating work for Wikidata, I would not wait until she has time or interest to dig into WikiIndex and finds out how to use Sweeties latest-user-info template. On the other hand, it if becomes a hype, that every user of Wookieepedia finds it funny to have a page here, I would not think that will be helpful to our purpose. So I call Your criteria a supporting argument but not a sufficient one. And Your supporting 'argument' in the fashion of 'it was always like that' I do not consider an argument at all. Manorainjan (talk) 23:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The statement on Alonzo Jackson's page was requested by Alonzo herself during my interview with her on IRC as a joke. I could add a footnote if possible but I don't know how the reference markup works here. Sweetie Belle (talk) 21:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Just add a URL inside single square brackets, without any spaces or url page names. And I sort of agree we need to ease off on the creation of wiki people pages. If someone is significant in say Uncyc or Wookiepedia, but are unknown elsewhere in the wikisphere, then they should not be included here - unless there are other over-riding reasons for their inclusion. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:34, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Still 'significant' is no practical criteria. It is totally POV just like 'notable' or 'interesting'. 'Operates a wiki farm' is an objective criteria.Manorainjan (talk) 21:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Manorainjan - what is your purpose of editing here on WikiIndex? You seem to be constantly criticising our methods and policies (or lack of policies) here on WikiIndex! Whilst I agree there are one or two issues which are in need of being updated; you seem to be questioning every aspect of the way WikiIndex is being operated.
Or am I misunderstanding you? I accept and respect that English is not your first language, and maybe you arn't as proficient as your mother tongue in expressing certain issues – which we all must make allowances for. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 12:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
For that, if at all, You better open a separate 'discussion' in another place and shift it there because it is not at all about criteria for Wiki peoples pages Manorainjan (talk) 13:11, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps you'd like to state exactly what criteria you would like for creating new pages for wiki people. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 12:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I did not yet make up my mind for a set of relevant criteria. What I', doing by now is, to parse the stream of contributions here and sort out criteria and opinions. By now on the criteria side there did not come much. Most people here had deeper and longer involvement in the Wikisphere than I had. But I'm trained so see what real criteria are. So that's the division of labour at the moment.Manorainjan (talk) 13:11, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Who cares what rules Wikipedia supposedly follows?

Please remember, we are NOT Wikipedia, and we do NOT have to follow or comply with their policies. In essance, that means we have NO requirement for verifiability, nor any of the other restrictive policies which Wikipedia is supposedly complying with. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 12:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I did not refer to Wikipedia here. When it is told one (the one who did ;-) should not make 'potentially libellous edits' on Wiki peoples pages, that is also not a Wikipedia derived policy but common sense. And so is if I adhere to the need of real criteria. We do not need real criteria in order to follow the example of Wikipedia. We need that in order to see this discussion trough and have useful results. Even if Wikipedia would be non existent, we still would need real criteria. For any decision that should lead to progress You need real criteria. That is called science. The other thing is called babble. Does anybody here have a wikipediaphobie? Are things bad as soon as they smell like Wikipedia? Is being like on Wikipedia an valid argument against anything here? should useful or needed things be avoided because it looks like on Wikipedia? I hope we got not Wikipedia-traumatised People here who's condition would be aggravated by the introduction of any Wikipedia like aspect to WikiIndex. Manorainjan (talk) ;-)
You are correct in that you didn't refer directly to Wikipedia - and I apologise to you for making such a direct statment. However, I believe you did refer to verifiabilty – which is one of their 'core' principles, and I assumed (wrongly in this instance) you were referring to Wikipedia by using them as guidance on their verifiability policy.
I also apologise if the tone of my previous reply was a little harsh. You just seem to be bombarding us all with a plethora of policy discussions, and I personally feel a little overwhealmed by your requests. I do agree with most of your concerns regading wiki people, and I also agree with some of your other concerns. However, can I please ask you to respect that WikiIndex folks have RealLives, and as someone (can't remember who) pertinently coined – WikiIsSlow – so we often fail to achieve resolutions as swiftly as is desired.
Might I suggest that you raise just one or two policy concerns for us to deal with at a time, and put any other concerns on your 'back burner' – ideally on your own ToDo page at User:Manorainjan/ToDo. You could then prioritise them, and also try to research any previous discussions we might have had. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 17:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  1. You may suggest whatever You like. So did I.
  2. I wasn't asking You to create me a ToDoList. and I do not want any. But I take it as a friendly hint on how to create sub-pages.
  3. Where those lists are leading to one can see here, here and here.
  4. The discussion we just finished, about funny logo-links, resulted from my work on another global 'ToDoList' which contained a heap of nearly 3.000 entries which I could not work on properly because of the collateral damage of queer* linking. *An Idea originally welcomed by Ray.
  5. I rigorously dismiss any talk about so called RealLife, because there is only one life and it is always real. And if You ever dream Your live away, than You really did it. And we are all real people except the bots. And I f You didn't get the time, than You will simply not show up here. Did I call Your home and asked You why You din't sit at Your pc and do WikiIndexWork?
  6. "Don't kill the messenger!" It wasn't me who ran the SeanBot to break the logoLinks. It wasn't me who forgot the Category on 3.000 files. I was not inventing alternate templates for Wiki pages and continuously using them which creates the sense of urgency in certain discussion. When I saw, that the as well silly template:inactive caused the WikiLogo files to appear abandoned I immediately stopped pasting delete templates on them. (and opened the needed discussion ;-)
  7. Let's be straight and place global tasks on a global ToDoList. I keep my little personal tasks to myself.Manorainjan (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
    1. If you think the Inactive Template is silly, make something that does the same thing (unlink all categories) and keeps the logo. And, ok, so do the ToDoList. :-) ~~ MarkDilley

I agree with Sean here (see Meatball:ForestFire). MarkDilley

We do not have a forest fire here. What we got is an ugly heap of undone stuff. If anything burns, than the urgency to finally do something about it. Where are the statistics about the real use of this Wiki? Where can we see if we dream away or really others than SPAMers are visiting here and make use of it? Is there a road map, targets, a strategy? There lots of Wikis out there which are mere dreams of a Wiki, like 90% of the list of 157 Wikis on Orian. Are we the Wiki of Wikis or the dream of dreams? Manorainjan (talk)

How does "It wasn't me who forgot the Category on 3.000 files" hurt this project? We, the community of WikiIndex are just as important as the "product" of WikiIndex. I appreciate all work done here and note that we have been plodding along for 8.5 years - I look forward to plodding along for another 8.5 years while keeping the community as equal as the "product" - that is where I am a wikipediaphobe. Best, MarkDilley

[edit] email functionality

All chat about e-mail now collected here -> Help talk:E-mail

[edit] Endless discussions // useful work

[edit] template inactive

That discussion does not speak clearly to a decision being made to use or not use this template. ~~ MarkDilley
I know that. That discussion would prompt any sensible person not to use this template until end of discussion, which is OK for me, because here no discussion ever ends in a final decision unless it is something petty like renaming a file or mending a template. When was the last major taken? 2006? Manorainjan (talk) 18:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

We mostly do work here. Policies and endless discussion are usually sporadic. ~~ MarkDilley

Oh, yeah! Lets make this more long winded ;-) Discussion is also work, unless only for argumentations sake, not completed and hanging in the air for years. Even then it is work, only without result. Naturally it is easier to do little edits here and there and consider that as work with results rather than coming to a conclusion in a debate since the later requires more staying power. At which page shall we start a discussion about the use of discussions? Who was that guy who frequently admonishes on other peoples talk pages that he was not included in any discussion? Manorainjan (talk) 20:34, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria for Wiki People pages

Lets not confuse the topic. ... If one mixes or shifts topics in a discussion, it comes to 'endless' discussions and no results for any of the raised topics. Manorainjan (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's not dictate what I choose to talk about. --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I do not intent to dictate whatever. I do not even aspire for sysop status. So, dictation would be quite impossible from my position. What I wrote was not, that You should choose certain topic to talk or choose not to talk about certain topic. I did not say sat. I said not to confuse topics. Sweetie choose to open the topic 'Criteria for Wiki People pages' and if anybody chooses to take part in that it is only common sense to speak to the chosen topic. I do not dictate that, but I expect that people stay with the topic. And what I wrote was an explanation of the consequences it has if one mixes other topics in and confuses them. If You speak at topic A and support Your view about topic B with an argument valid for topic C, what will come out of that? I referred to 'endless' discussions on account of a remark from Mark which alerted me, that discussions here might have the tendency not to conclude in a useful result and therefore, because of lack of the fruit of work, may look like no work. Manorainjan (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Moderator

Can anybody make a help page that tells what in Wiki-terms a Moderator is?Manorainjan (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

A moderator is not a default MediaWiki usergroup. It might be created on a few MW installations which like to modify core details such as usergroup names (I guess Uncyc are the obvious in that regard). 'Moderator' is more commonly used on internet forums, and might be found on those wiki which are attached to internet forums. So, in reality, this isn't a wide-spread wiki term. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
They use it on RationalWiki. Leucosticte (talk) 01:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like it's a user group with some bureaucrat + and some oversight ability. RationalWiki have no bureaucrats for some reason. [1] --YiFei | talk 03:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] auto-stats?

Can anybody tell me how this works? {{Size |pages = {{JurisPedia/NumberOfArticles|en}} ....

It's not auto. Someone invented it. --YiFei | talk 04:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
YiFei is correct, it is an IP editor from Germany who has specific interests in a couple of multilingual wiki projects (one other being WikiMANNia), and created a couple of shortcut templates which would enable all related articles to be updated on a monthly (or-so) basis from editing just two templates. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, in the meantime I understood what it was about. --Manorainjan (talk) ✓ Done

[edit] Style // Talents

[edit] Style

Who's the man (or woman ;-) here when it comes to good English style? It's not me ;-) Anybody who can check my latest effusion?

[edit] confusion

<cough> . . . was that me????  :? Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I would very much appreciate if people would NOT use the undefined place-holder 'that' in their answers. 'That' more often than not causes confusion and require repeated queries. Manorainjan (talk) 21:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Huh - now I am confused. It's late, I'm tired . . . I'm off to bed - nighty-night. :-zzzz Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:19, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, I'l split that for clarity.Manorainjan (talk)

[edit] Talents

I'm missing some table or so where people write their topic of interest, permissions or talent so that we can know to whom to turn in a case we can't do it ourself. Manorainjan (talk) 14:10, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative infoboxes

I took it for granted that all wikis on this index should use the same infobox, for consistency's sake. However, I see that User:Sweetie Belle has created an alternative one — Template:Wiki infobox‎.

In addition to some different stylistic choices, it includes a parameter for showing the Admins of the wiki. However, it does not have all of the parameters of the original.

While I'm not opposed to adding the Admins parameter or changing the look, or for that matter having an alternative infobox (though that could be problematic to manage), I do feel strongly that we should not omit the other information which is part of Template:Wiki.

Perhaps it is time to set a standard? --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I think (I do not feel about that) that only one template should be used not many. And this one Template will evolve.
  • If anybody wants to make functional changes to this core tool of Wikiindex it should be discussed first.
  • Wikipages are not sandboxes. So experiments on Wikipages should not be made. But maybe we can declare ONE specific Wiki to be an experimental case (create one more silly Wiki on Wikia? Who cares?) and try new templates with this one.Manorainjan (talk) 19:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
One single infobox is sufficient. Adding more than that makes things look messy and unorganized. If a consensus is reached that further data should be added to the main template, that's fine. Creating new ones is not. TeraS (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So far, I believe the new infobox template is only in place at SpongeBob Fan Wiki. Also, I'd like to add that, as suggested, Template:Wiki has evolved over time. And one would hope that it continues to evolve. So, perhaps the goals of the new infobox can be achieved by modifying the existing template (preferably by experimenting in a sandbox first.) --MarvelZuvembie (talk) 19:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I would support modifying the existing template to meet new needs as opposed to creating something entirely new if possible. Arcane (talk) 20:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I like the stylistic changes. Think experimenting with those on the original template is the path forward. I think WikiPages are fine places to experiment with, it is wiki and reverting is easy. :-) ~~ MarkDilley
Experimenting with 'live' templates (templates which are widely used by the vast majority of pages on a wiki) is a very BAD idea. And whilst the revert function may work OK with edits done on article pages on a standard MediaWiki install, it can NOT 'undo' incorrect edits to a template when Semantic MediaWiki is also used!
As others have stated, copy the content of the template and paste it into a sandbox (either a sub-page of your own userspace or of the actual template), do your test edits on that, then apply that sandboxed test template to an existing article entry - but use only the 'Show preview' function - and do NOT save the edit. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Please link me to information that would talk about why it is a bad idea. I would like to understand why the semantic nature of the wiki makes it less wiki like. Best, MarkDilley
IMO Too many styles look a bit messy :( & Testing => Template:Wiki/sandbox Template:Wiki/testcases so they won't just break most of our pages with a single edit. --YiFei | talk 04:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The Template:Wiki can easily be modified, and there are already some optional attributes in it. ... So I suggest to copy the template contents first into a mew template and modify this copy. Then test it with some real wiki pages (using the preview function). If the changes evaluate positively, they can be applied to the original template (then the copy should be deleted). --Wolf | talk 05:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Wolf, I agree that the template can be easily modified - but one should exercise real caution. 'Incorrect' edits (irrespective of wether they are in 'good faith' or otherwise) can cause mayhem with Semantic Data, especially Semantic Properties. So in reality, any template which calls on Semantic Data/Properties should not be edited by anyone unless they have some reasonable level of proficiency of the cause and effect of modifying templates using Semantic functions. Hope you are well, and I miss your input here! Warmest regards Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

If Hoof or Mark will briefly unprotect Template:Wiki so I can make some adjustments to it, then I'm okay with this. Sweetie Belle (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Use a sandbox, and do NOT modify any Semantic Data fields, unless you are sure of your actions on said Semantic functions. :) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Server load

Template:Wiki Just a technical hint: any change to this template will appear slowly, because so many wiki pages have to be rendered again. --Wolf | talk 05:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Why would a change in the template appear slowly? AFAIK any page called will cause a call to all templates used in that page and be rendered accordingly. So, if You modify a template, all pages called after saving the modification will show the new design. So, how often the change will show depends on how many pages will be called thereafter. Which brings me to the question of statistics about page calls here?? I mean calls within a given time frame. That would show how many visitors would get to see strange pages if the main template would be experimented on.Manorainjan (talk) 09:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Ok, maybe I'm not up-to-date concerning the running Version. I only remember a significantly increased server load after template edits (some years ago). Now also semantic MediaWiki extensions are in use... --Wolf | talk 12:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I would not suspect that this is a question of version. It is a principal thing, how it works.

  1. First of all there might be not really a causal connection between a change in that template and an increase in server load around that time. Temporal coincidence is at best an arbitrary indication not a prove of causal relationship.
  2. Secondly, in case of a change of the template, it will not affect the work of rendering any page unless a page is called by a user. And it will sure not cause the machine to 'update' all 20.000 Wiki pages and 'render' them right away.
  3. A BOT may cause such an rise in workload, because if any bot is sent to change a little thing on all Wiki pages, that may take some time and indeed affect the content on all pages. That would be executed straight after the invocation of the BOT which would run until done with the last page.
  4. Another thing that may be executed right away and take load would be the rebuild of an index or the formation of a new one. I suppose that would rather be caused by the creation of a category. But for a real increase in workload the category markers would have to be many. So, if first a BOT (on would not have time and patience to to that by hand) would go through all Wiki pages and turn some criteria into category markers and thereafter that category would be created, those both runs would probably be seen as increased server load for a noticeable time.Manorainjan (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
My opinion re any change to template:Wiki will not affect any server loading, as changes in rendered displays will only be called upon for individual aricle pages as they are loaded (or reloaded, edited, previewed, etc). However, should any Semantic properties be altered, then this will have an instant effect on server loading. Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Then that's a bug :( It should go through the job queue and *slowly* refreshing unless there's some *giant* backend like wmf. --YiFei | talk 03:53, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion with results AKA work ;-)

I would appreciate if decision finding would go on in a far more structured way here than it does. What I'm missing is:

  • A category for pages about or discussions, the process of decision finding and the results.
  • A way to inform interested users (AKA people ;-) about the start of a discussion,
  • about the start of voting
  • and about the result of voting.
  • Pages where results are documented so that it is really clear what the current policy is and not just "I remember a discussion years ago ..."

Suggestions? Manorainjan (talk) 11:30, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I had always envisioned the CommunityPortal to be a place for notification. I am not a fan of voting, more of a community consensus person on big decisions. And I am not a fan of policy creep. Look forward to where this goes. ~~ MarkDilley

Looks like You see consensus and voting as opposites. But I see avoiding the voting as means of never arriving at a consensus and the main cause of 'endless' discussions. there are many ways to vote. there are was to manipulate votes and to manufacture fake consensus. To vote and decide does not mean to cut it in stone for eternity. It means to get clarity for now.

Describe as precise as possible how You envision that consensus are reached! It is not enough to wish it. One has to know how to create it step by step. As for the CommunityPortal to be useful I see that the last WikiIndex:Completed Tasks was on 19 February 2006. That tells me very clearly that it does not work. An if I see what task was competed, than I say: Mayhem. And where is the documentation of what that task was and why it was decided to do it? It may be within the Gordian Knot of talk page in the archives somewhere, but not documented in any useful manner than one can build upon it. That's no way to do 'work'.

The start of CommunityPortal goes like this at the moment:

28 July 2014 
From RayKing: Ben shut off that extension because it was somehow being abused 
and we were seeing problems on ICANNWiki which shares the same server 
(these are the only 2 sites on this server). 
I'm cc'ing Jonah (ICANNWiki) and Ben now, 
having just read the thread in your e-mail to see if there's a resolution to both issues. ~~ MarkDilley

And that puts me off to read any further or think this portal is good for anything. Looks totally like a chunk of private communication between two insiders. That does not inform or involve. Expressions like 'that extension' on a top page? Not explaining anything, only causing ???!. And it sits there since month. No tidying with brackets around ICANNWiki or 'that'. I'm getting extra brackets on my own talk page uninvited but nobody cares for one of the front pages? there You can see the real importance of this portal page for all people of this community, because not even You cared since month.

When I say notify, than I mean a system that actively sends a ping to all concerned and not a page that obviously nobody reads and does not change for month.Manorainjan (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] About

What about redirecting WikiIndex:About to WikiIndex?

  • Work only on one page rather than two
  • Freeze the about page and have one top level page more protected against SPAM.
  • Have our 'about' in exactly the way we would like other Wikis have them, so that we could easyly copy to their Wiki page here. ;-)

Manorainjan (talk) 11:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

To protect against spam, semi-protection would probably suffice. Leucosticte (talk) 16:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Blockage of the user Manorainjan

Hello, I am creating this section to discuss the (if not just from my perspective) somewhat controversial blockage of WikiIndex user Manorainjan.

Although I believe he can be nice sometimes, Manor has also proven to be a bit "fixated" on what he wants specifically, even going so far as to argue with or insult admins, constantly posting messages on their talk pages even after they're reverted.

I'm leaning to support his ban, but could one of you (preferably Hoof) tell me what led to Manor's ban in the first place, please? :) Sweetie Belle (talk) 15:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the well-reasoned and level-headed question on this issue. Now that someone has asked me nicely, I shall do my best in explaining why I banned User:Manorainjan – and there are many reasons! I'll hopefully give a detailed answer tomorrow when I have more time and less distractions. :) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 21:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm also interested in a detailed explanation. --Wolf | talk 09:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, is he actually banned (not just blocked)? It seems like the behavior he got blocked for mostly consisted of intellectual property violations (which might have been kinda controversial, since they related to a copylefted image, right?), some edit warring, and having an abrasive, confrontational, even sometimes accusatory style of interaction. However, he made some good points and did some good work too. Also, as a general principle, I wouldn't want to see a user banned for more than six months, since people can change. Here are some arguments with regard to that.
Can he be given an opportunity to defend himself in this thread? If he behaves badly in how he defends himself, that will merely add more fuel to the fire of his banning, so I don't think we have much to worry about with regard to that. It seems fair to let someone rebut his accusers before he gets jettisoned from the project. Leucosticte (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

This I imported from my TalkPage:

[edit] WARNING over your conduct here on WikiIndex

Please take this message very seriously:

  1. Do NOT post malicious messages on mine or others user talk pages.
  2. Do NOT repeatedly revert other peoples' edits - that is called an edit war, and is highly disruptive to the WikiIndex community.
  3. Do NOT demand that other pages (which have been on here for over eight years) are deleted.
  4. Do NOT question actions of the actions of either the sites' administrators, bureaucrats, or even other long-standing community members; with the aloof attitude that you are somehow some higher authority, and the expectation that you have an absolute right to be answered.
  5. Do NOT question the authority or motives of administrators or crats.
  6. Do NOT think you have the authority to seek out current or former members on social media sites, asking them if they want to keep their pages, or have them deleted.

I don't give second warnings - I will block any account and/or IP address which causes disruption to WikiIndex.

You clearly have a lot of time and energy to give, and it would be appreciated by all if you were to use your time here on WikiIndex in a constructive, harmonious and respectful manner; respecting its traditions, and if you wish, help mold its' future by gentle evolution - rather than your seemingly agressive and forceful attempts of 'revolution'. By all means, if you are unsure of something, please ask (giving full detail of your concerns, with supporting examples where necessary), and we will try to answer your questions. But you seem to 'demand' answers - on your terms, and you have irritated more than just myself. If others wish to delete your comments from their own personal talk pages, then let it be.

In light of the above comments, I hope that you can continue your efforts here, and become an established and valued member of WikiIndex, and I reaffirm my original welcome of 'wiki friendship'. If you are unsure of your motives, or unsure of your ability to integrate harmoniously within our community - then you might like to consider if WikiIndex for you. Warmest regards. :) Sean, aka Hoof HeartedAdmin / 'Crattalk2HH 22:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] You are not blocked this time

...I hope. Please be respectful to the community, refrain personal attacks on them, concentrate on being constructive. Thanks! --Wolf | talk 07:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like I did attack others personally. Can You give an example of when and whom and how and why it looks like a personal attack in Your eyes? Manorainjan (talk) 09:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

--Manorainjan (talk) 01:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Random shit wiki

Is there a wiki out there, besides on Wikia, where people can post whatever random shit they want in their userspace and not have it be deleted? Leucosticte (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

ask User:Sweetie Belle ;-) or make Yourself a bliki in a WikiFarm. Manorainjan (talk) 18:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)