Talk:RationalWiki (en)/Archive2

'Archive1'
'/Archive1' the "archive" made at this time, was made by. He would prefer we not refer to this as a subpage, for some reason. Lumenos 07:06, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Current Table of Contents of the writable "archive" which was, at this time, made by Nx. (It is on my watchlist. Your prayers shall not be forgotten oh brave dissenters. ;-) Lumenos 07:06, 10 September 2009 (EDT)


 * 1) What Conservapedia thinks about RationalWiki (en)
 * 2) The "criticism" section
 * 3) Gibberish
 * 4) Hell!
 * 5) WikiIndex
 * 6) "Cyberbullying" section
 * 7) Why the page "RationalWiki (en)" was protected

Proxima's recent rampage
Again, see previous. She edits and reverts with no real sense of how to write on a wiki, and has even blocked an editor for correcting her factual errors on this page. I don't see why she is an admin on this wiki considering her totalitarian tendencies. PS, she's also fairly illiterate in both English and wiki-skills. This wiki embarrasses itself by giving her control/power over other editors. Huw Powell 00:09, 24 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I'd like to edit this article to fix the alleged "admin" Proxima Centauri's factual errors and grammatical disasters.  Of course, I can't because she has locked the article from being edited to protect her link spamming to her pet wiki (Liberapedia).  Sadly, this means she has also protected it from having any of her grotesque factual and grammatical mistakes repaired by anyone. Huw Powell 01:21, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

Why is RationalWiki down?
Anyone can see these RationalWikians are being deliberately unpleasant. Only close insiders know what the real problem is though if the problem is what it seems RationalWiki will probably be back on or soon after the 6th of September. I don’t rule out that there may be a worse problem, I don’t rule out that there are legal problems involving those connected with Conservapedia or with any of the many who RationalWiki has branded practitioners of Pseudo-science. Many astrologers and other similar people quite likely have their livelihoods affected by what RationalWiki says and they will pay large sums of money to lawyers to stop what RationalWiki says about them. Proxima Centauri 02:17, 24 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Lol. You, my friend, are quite crazy. Phantom Hoover 04:00, 24 August 2009 (EDT)


 * Actually, anyone who's slightly more active at RationalWiki would know that. The better question is, why don't you allow those people WHO KNOW write the article instead of writing down your guesses. As for your speculation, dear god you're paranoid.
 * Well, she hasn't been around on RW lately, because of her strop about the whole Barbara Shack thing. She's always been convinced that someone will sue us, in spite of reality. Phantom Hoover 04:16, 24 August 2009 (EDT)


 * Actually it was a fortune cookie. Tmtoulouse 17:01, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

Why cant I edit this page?
What the f00k? f00k f88k f66k? k99f? Ace McWicked 11:16, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

Put your suggestions here. Proxima Centauri 12:42, 24 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Unlock the page and undo your reversions; unblock and apologize to and .  Then take a careful look at your reverting, locking, blocking, and oversighting habits and see where they might fit in better on the web... just a suggestion. Huw Powell 01:05, 25 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Seconded- WikiIndex is for factual information, not pursuing personal vendettas, and if you made your own name public, that is not the wiki in question's fault. SuperJosh 06:13, 25 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Human has a vendetta, it seems, against PC. --Arthro
 * Due to her labelling us all trolls when she gave her real name away and locking articles at least three times to keep her version up. Phantom Hoover 17:20, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
 * This isn't about PC's "name" issue any more, that was so last month. Now it's about her incompetent editing of the article and locking it to protect her edits. Huw Powell 03:56, 26 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps then you should actually try to compromise instead of reverting each other edits, eh? --Arthro
 * They've already tried that CUR. If everyone just left this whole clusterf*ck alone, people would soon forget about the whole PC-naming incident. If PC stops digging up this issue - which in itself is just drawing attention to the fact that her real name is/was known - I think everyone could just get on with their wiki lives. This whole naming thing happened ages ago (over a year wasn't it?) and it's still being brought up today. SuperJosh 13:00, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Josh, this wasn't anything to do with her name. It was her keeping an appallingly bad version of the article up by locking it and blocking dissenters. Phantom Hoover 15:03, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I didn't bring it up here, they did. Proxima Centauri 14:59, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Edit wars
I apologize that some of my edits became the basis for edit wars. I wanted to clarify some things. Lumenos 11:30, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

About this exchange:
 * As of Aug 22, RationalWiki and related sites such as RationalWikiWiki and the RationalWiki forum, are inaccessible
 * As of Aug 19, RationalWiki and related sites such as RationalWikiWiki and the RationalWiki forum, are inaccessible
 * "Proxima, maybe I remember the date better, since I was there, and maybe I can READ THE F---ING DATE ON THE BLOG POST" (Nx edit summary)
 * This was a misunderstanding. I posted the date originally and I meant that at the time of Aug 22, the site was still down. I posted that on Aug 22. Lumenos 11:30, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Please understand, our beef was not with your version (which was, admittedly, flawed), but with Proxima's out of place addition of advertisements for Liberapedia and her insistence that removing content was totally disallowed. Phantom Hoover 12:11, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I suppose the beef may have been updated, but I'm just pointing out that that particular beef appeared to be due to an ambiguous statement. This might be one of those "inaccuracies", if there is more than one. Lumenos 12:37, 30 August 2009 (EDT) This might be one of Proxima's "inaccuracies" that I keep reading about, if there is more than one. Lumenos 02:54, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * OK. I realise that the statement is somewhat ambiguous, but there were other flaws. Phantom Hoover 12:41, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I will attempt to write with less ambiguity in the future. Lumenos 02:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Lumenos, my problem was not with you making a mistake, my problem was with PC's inability to read or think before clicking revert, lock and block. Nx 12:11, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I don't think I'd like to confess to making any "mistake" per se, until I know what "as of" means. Do you feel it was foolish of you:
 * 1st to leave it reading "as of" instead of changing it to "on" as I have done? Lumenos 07:18, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * 2nd to assume that you understood what it meant and that we were too stupid to put the correct date? Lumenos 07:22, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * 3rd to explode at the sysop? Was someone just saying to me how unnice something was? Who was that? Lumenos 07:22, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

Similar wikis
Please place or move arguments here for what makes a wiki notable and similar enough to RationalWiki, to be included in the "See also" section. '[Added bold and italic emphasis to the preceding statement. Some editors may have missed that, since the section grew. I apologize for not anticipating this (it is rather humorous in my view but I'm sorry if it caused anyone frustration, or if they feel any damage cannot be repaired). Lumenos 06:05, 3 September 2009 (EDT)]'

What criteria will include these:
 * Atheism Wiki
 * Debatepedia wiki also discusses controversial topics -- but puts both viewpoints side-by-side on the same page.
 * FreeThoughtPedia
 * Iron Chariots
 * RationalWikiWiki meta site for RationalWiki.

And exclude these:
 * Liberapedia
 * Easy. Websites with an aim of discussing controversial topics. Liberapedia isn't meant to do that; it desperately wants to be a parody of Conservapedia, a direction RationalWiki has been moving away from significantly (I'm told that before the crash it was agreed to purge the mainspace of CP references). Phantom Hoover 12:33, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Who should define the intentions of a wiki, those who are sympathetic of the wiki or those who are critical? Lumenos 12:43, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Those who are in charge. As the mob is in charge at RW, there is no easy way to ask it, but the mission statement sums it up. I really think that DebatePedia should be removed, as it has little to do with the mission statement; the atheism ones are OK, because atheism and rationalism are closely related. Phantom Hoover 12:48, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * So who is in charge of Liberapedia? Lumenos 12:52, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Proxima. Phantom Hoover 12:53, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * And this is their official mission statement:
 * "Liberapedia gives the opinions of American Liberals and left leaning people worldwide. Liberapedia aims to entertain as well as educate. Some of the articles are serious. Other articles are satirical and shouldn’t be taken too seriously. Yet more articles mix truth with satire. We hope users will like to contribute to Liberapedia and will enjoy reading articles."
 * Phantom Hoover 12:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * And who is qualified to interpret that in this context? Lumenos 12:58, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Anyone. That's the whole point of a wiki. Phantom Hoover 13:00, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I mean how will you resolve a dispute? Lumenos 13:02, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

Is it within the realm of possibility that if Proxima (because she is in charge) were judging she would say that Liberapedia does the following?: Lumenos 13:52, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Analyzing and refuting the anti-science movement, ideas and people.
 * Analyzing and refuting the full range of crank ideas.
 * Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.

Arguments that Liberapedia (or certain descriptions) should be included (rebuttals welcome)
I moved this to subpage, Nx moved it back out here. I do not endorse edits I made in this section of this incomplete debate map. Read this if you like being confused (reading my possibly confused edits) due to extreme sleep deprivation. Nx seemed to concede the "stated topic" point anyway. (See edit in bold.) Lumenos 13:29, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

(Please indent rebuttal's and place them under the argument in favor. Only bullet arguments favoring the inclusion of Liberpedia info. I'm moving editors posts and making this like an outline, if no one minds. Lumenos 08:23, 31 August 2009 (EDT)) '[Added bold and italic emphasis to the preceding statement. Some editors may have missed that, since the section grew. I apologize for not anticipating this (it is rather humorous in my view but I'm sorry if it caused anyone frustration, or if they feel any damage cannot be repaired). Lumenos 06:05, 3 September 2009 (EDT)]'


 * They both devote a great deal of attention to Conservapedia. (Posted by Lumenos)
 * As I said, RationalWiki is now trying to move away from that, mainly due to the fact that the most entertaining part of watching CP was seeing Andy bested in an argument by everyone and then blocking them all, which TK has put an end to. Phantom Hoover 13:04, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, perhaps someone is trying. :) Lumenos 13:09, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What about those who liked the olden days of RationalWiki, and they are looking for a wiki that is inclusive of criticism of Conservapedia? (We are not looking for exact similarity. If RW is changing this makes Liberapedia more notable, not less.) Lumenos 13:54, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I believe RationalWiki was founded by people who were banned or left Conservapedia willingly. Others may be leaving Conservapedia for the same reason. They may have heard something about RationalWiki, and want some place to post their "grievance", or analysis (with sources). Where would be a better place for them to do that, Liberapedia or RationalWiki? Lumenos 14:29, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Like i said, we are not removing the Conservapedia namespace. We are removing references to CP in mainspace, which wouldn't make sense to someone who doesn't know a thing about CP, or aren't really notable (e.g. Andy's opinion on spinach in the spinach article, if we had one, etc.) Nx 14:41, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * So I suppose you are saying that they may be able to post this info to your wiki. Shucks, well I guess we could always use this as evidence of "They both devote a great deal of attention to Conservapedia." I don't know how you expect to argue your way out of a catch 22. Notice it doesn't work the other way around. Like if you prove that you pay no attention to Conservapedia, this doesn't imply Liberapedia would not be of interest to those reading this article. I think this is getting to be a dead horse. Lumenos 15:31, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I think I completely lost track there. What are we arguing about again? I was trying to clear the misconception that RW seems to be deleting CP related material and that there is significant opposition or not enough support for this. Nx 15:49, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Ok, I think I understand now, you're arguing for including a link to Liberapedia in this article. If that is so, I'm afraid your efforts to to defeat me in this debate have been in vain, because I have no problem with that (though your argument is a bit stretched because Liberapedia is a parody of CP, while RW refutes CP). But then again I'm not familiar with Liberapedia's content enough to make a judgement here. Nx 16:01, 31 August 2009 (EDT)[Bold added by Lumenos 13:27, 10 September 2009 (EDT)]


 * RationalWiki may "purge the mainspace of [Conservapedia] references", which may alienate a significant number of users who may be interested in a wiki that is inclusive of criticism of Conservapedia (and maybe less deletionist). (Posted by Lumenos)
 * We do have an extensive Conservapedia namespace. Phantom Hoover 13:56, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Is this a rebuttal or misplaced supporting argument? ;-) Lumenos 06:41, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * We are only purging mainspace of CP, we won't delete the CP related material in the CP namespace - for example, our article on historical revisionism shouldn't focus on TK's oversighting. Nx 12:30, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * How many agree with that plan? Lumenos 14:10, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Exactly 47 users. Seriously though, you're asking as if it weren't generally accepted that this is a good thing. Nx 14:17, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Was I? If you have a source for your review that would be appreciated. A petition or vote perhaps. Lumenos 14:29, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * At the very least, Human would have to be on board, right? Lumenos 14:30, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Not necessarily on board, it's enough if he doesn't object. But you can also ask him. No there's no petition or vote, it's generally accepted as a good thing, especially as CP is dying, RW needs to move away and widen its focus. I have yet to see anyone oppose this. And with RW being down, I can't provide any references, even if I knew where to find some. Nx 14:41, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well there we go, an reviewer who is very active (although sympathetic) claims they have never heard opposition. That is notable in my view. Lumenos 15:21, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * So? What are you getting at? Again, you imply we're doing something bad and are trying to deny it... Nx 15:50, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * No I'm conceding your argument here and using it as evidence that some reviews of wikis can be valuable even if they are unsourced. Lumenos 16:05, 31 August 2009 (EDT)


 * Being that we are discussing merely a link, it doesn't take up very much space or detract from the article. (Posted by Lumenos)
 * It wasn't the link that was advertisement; it was her inserting a paragraph promoting LP as an alternative source of CP criticism. Phantom Hoover 13:57, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * We could definitely use some help establishing a criteria to define "advertisements" in this sort of context, if you believe you are qualified to make this judgment alone or establish consensus or at least some "consensus groups", to move forward on this issue. Lumenos 02:26, 31 August 2009 (EDT)


 * If we add only a link to Liberapedia, this would not take up very much space or detract from the article. (Posted by Lumenos)

Arguments that Liberapedia (or certain descriptions) should NOT be included (rebuttals welcome)
(Please indent rebuttal's and place them under the argument. Only bullet arguments opposing the inclusion of Liberpedia info. I'm moving editors posts and making this like an outline, if no one minds. Lumenos 08:23, 31 August 2009 (EDT))'[Added bold and italic emphasis to the preceding statement. Some editors may have missed that, since the section grew. I apologize for not anticipating this (it is rather humorous in my view but I'm sorry if it caused anyone frustration, or if they feel any damage cannot be repaired). Lumenos 06:05, 3 September 2009 (EDT)]'


 * If LP devotes a lot of time to CP this information should be in the LP article and the CP article. It is not, of itself, an argument for it to be in the RW article.--Bob M 05:28, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Agreed that it should be in the Liberpedia article and the Conservapedia article, but I don't see how that has any bearing on it being included here. Readers may be interested in RationalWiki for its criticism of religious fundamentalism. They may be interested in Liberapedia for the same reason. Lumenos 08:33, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

What is Liberapedia about anyway
I thought it was a parody of CP (a leftist equivalent), but it seems it sometimes gets confused and thinks it's a serious encyclopedia refuting CP and fundamentalism. Nx 12:30, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

Allowance of (critical) reviews

 * [I moved two chunks of dialog here as it is more relevant to this topic Lumenos 17:22, 31 August 2009 (EDT)]

Proxima and I would like to assimilate Wikinfo's policy wherein the mainpage is written in a sympathetic format and a link at the top of the article leads to a page devoted to criticism. Lumenos 13:26, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Being that you are a respected member of a community, I would like to feature your criticism with your signature, in the article 'Criticism of Liberpedia', in a section for RationalWikians. This would mean we would also create a 'Criticism of RationalWiki' article which you may be able to help with also. Both articles should follow any other polices that are established. Sound like a plan? Lumenos 13:26, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I don't really think there's a need for a separate article for criticism, what's wrong with a criticism section? I simply don't see how a separate article solves any problems. Also, I'm not fond of the idea of including "user reviews" of wikis, because that's just a way to circumvent referencing (it's just an opinion, it doesn't need to be substantiated...). Note that I'm not against criticism being presented. Ideally, this wiki should have admins who oversee the content of articles, so that any criticism is well referenced and true. Nx 13:34, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * So you are okay then with having a criticism section in the RationalWiki article? Lumenos 13:49, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I never said I wasn't. I'm opposed to PC using this article as her little playground and locking out everyone else. She has Liberapedia for that. Nx 13:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * ...if we require user reviews are referenced? Lumenos 13:51, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Probably most wikis wouldn't need more than a little criticism section, but look at all that has been posted to talk pages. Lumenos 13:57, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Having separate pages would allow us to leave one unprotected while the other is protected, if edit warring is only happening on one of them. Lumenos 13:57, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * It wouldn't work in practice, because if the main article is not protected, the link to the criticism article can be removed. Nx 14:00, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps not if editors believe that would only mean the main article would be protected, and the link replaced. Lumenos 14:08, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I doubt that would happen in practice. Nx 14:20, 31 August 2009 (EDT)


 * (ec) I'm more opposed to the format. I don't think it's a good idea to have a bunch of random people saying "I like this place very much they are teh funney.", with the occasional "They are very mean because they reverted my extremely well written and unbiased additions, see here." Nx 13:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * They would be required to provide sources for that information, but I don't see that it does much damage otherwise. It is obviously just someone's claimed experience. Now if they have a certain reputation on the other hand... this is why I suggest there be signed posts. Just like that debate up there about linking to Liberapedia. Lumenos 14:08, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Like I said, I don't like the format. It's non-encyclopedic, redundant, and generally a mess. But that's just my 2c. Nx 14:20, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well we could always use talk pages for all these opinions and whatnot. Lumenos 14:46, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Proxima did say she felt the Wikinfo approach was cumbersome, so I guess we will try out just having sections for criticism, since Nx seems to prefer this also. Lumenos 14:51, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

19:01, 31 August 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs) (5,879 bytes) (→Criticism and rebuttals - belongs on talk page - please don't accuse me of removing criticism because of bias)
 * Oh no one would think that, don't be silly. Lumenos 18:43, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

Nx's example of RationalWiki's consensus
[This was imported from the section where Nx realized he was off-topic was responding to the misconception of RW purging criticism of CP, so I moved it here where it ends on topic, where I am making a case that user reviews can be helpful (if not made by idiots [or liars]).] '[Then the section was copied back after Nx finally decided to tell me he didn't think we were working together on this. Lumenos 07:30, 3 September 2009 (EDT)]'
 * We are only purging mainspace of CP, we won't delete the CP related material in the CP namespace - for example, our article on historical revisionism shouldn't focus on TK's oversighting. Nx 12:30, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * How many agree with that plan? Lumenos 14:10, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Exactly 47 users. Seriously though, you're asking as if it weren't generally accepted that this is a good thing. Nx 14:17, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Was I? If you have a source for your review that would be appreciated. A petition or vote perhaps. Lumenos 14:29, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * At the very least, Human would have to be on board, right? Lumenos 14:30, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Not necessarily on board, it's enough if he doesn't object. But you can also ask him. No there's no petition or vote, it's generally accepted as a good thing, especially as CP is dying, RW needs to move away and widen its focus. I have yet to see anyone oppose this. And with RW being down, I can't provide any references, even if I knew where to find some. Nx 14:41, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well there we go, an reviewer who is very active (although sympathetic) claims they have never heard opposition. That is notable in my view. Lumenos 15:21, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * So? What are you getting at? Again, you imply we're doing something bad and are trying to deny it... Nx 15:50, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * No I'm conceding your argument here and using it as evidence that some reviews of wikis can be valuable even if they are unsourced. Lumenos 16:05, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What review, and how is it valuable? Nx 16:18, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm calling what you are doing here a "review" of RationalWiki. It is probably not what you had in mind as a "review". I'm trying to dispel the myth that reviews are only done by idiots. Please help me dispel this myth. ;-) Lumenos 17:22, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * It depends on the implementation of the review system. I'd prefer to have my "review" incorporated into the article though (it already is to some extent: "While Conservapedia continues to be a major focus of RationalWiki, they have branched out into many areas of skepticism.") instead of having a mess of multiple, possibly redundant opinions in the article. Nx 17:28, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well don't you think it important that your claim of "no one objects" be noted as your claim? Lumenos 17:41, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I do not understand why it even has to be in the article. Nx 17:46, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Dude, are you sitting down, cause I'm gonna blow your mind right now. This is the article!!!....er wait okay no, perhaps this particular example is not notable as to the itty bitty articles y'all prefer to make, but it was more of a uhhh proof of concept. Maybe later I will find a better example. Lumenos 18:31, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * [After article was moved to talk page.] Okay I just wanna nip this in the butt. Before anybody says, "Oh my Gosh! Lumenos is a prophet! Or ey must have been in on the whole thing! Let me assure you this is uuh as far as I know, just a coincidence. 08:16, 6 September 2009 (EDT) [updated statement Lumenos 13:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * I guess perhaps I may have gotten the idea into my subconscious by reading Dilley's plan to do this. I think I read it before, but I'm not sure... I know what you are thinking, "My the vanity!" And why are you reading? Lumenos 13:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

RationalWiki vs Wikipedia
I don't see how this wiki could possibly expect to compete realistically with Wikipedia, in terms of the "official" goals that are listed at the top of this article. It does however have an interesting and active community and Wikipedia does not allow satire. (Lumenos) [Update: And you can say. :) Lumenos 15:04, 31 August 2009 (EDT)]
 * It does not try to compete with Wikipedia. To put it simply: WP's policies do not allow it to call bullshit (e.g. creation "science" etc.) bullshit. RW can do that, and can also be funny while doing it. There's also nothing about competing with Wikipedia in the site's official goals. In fact some of us are quite zealous when it comes to off-mission articles (e.g. some pretty well written math articles copied from CP, where they were deleted by Ed Poor because he didn't understand them, were deleted on RW because they were off-mission, and WP would always have a better article about the subject anyway). We know that we stand no chance against WP in its home turf. Nx 14:47, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What you can't do at Wikipedia is Conservapedia (or Liberapedia). I think your stated goals should include satire, since that is really what sets you apart. Lumenos 15:04, 31 August 2009 (EDT) [Updates: struck out bad argument. Huw attacks this weak point of the debate, next. Lumenos 17:28, 10 September 2009 (EDT) RationalWiki has a different inclusion policy, meaning that it focuses on those objectives solely, whereas Wikipedia has a broader scope. Lumenos 17:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * Lumenos, you really don't understand what RW is do you? As in, embarrassingly so?  (Granted it's down right now, but its goals are listed in this article).  It's got nothing to do with wikipedia.  It's not an encyclopedia. And why have you made such a mess of this talk page? Huw Powell 07:21, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I almost missed your post way up here. Maybe this wasn't clear. I'm only referring to the following stated goals which I think Wikipedia achieves to a much greater degree than RationalWiki can ever hope to. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I hope that my critical views will not put me at odds with the community or administration of RW because it seems like a fun place when it doesn't take itself too seriously:
 * Analyzing and refuting the anti-science movement, ideas and people.
 * Analyzing and refuting the full range of crank ideas.
 * Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
 * I believe it is nearly a measurable fact that Wikipedia is able to achieve these objectives to a far greater degree than RationalWiki, but I have answered a number of arguments to the contrary, if you would like to respond to any of those, or come up with a new one. Lumenos 11:38, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * The talk page is completely editable, I don't see why you and Nx seem to think that whatever "wandalous" damage has been done to the talk page, cannot be easily repaired. How are talk pages supposed to look in your view? Lumenos 11:33, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No it isn't. It is that we have a specific point of view; a scientific one. Phantom Hoover 15:10, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I wasn't talking about dirty words Lumenos, I was talking about not being neutral. Nx 15:14, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Hum. Well here is that policy on neutrality. Are you saying that RW is biased or it lacks reliable sources? Lumenos 15:39, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Quote from our community standards:

"RationalWiki does not use Wikipedia's well-known "Neutral Point of View". We have our own version: SPOV. SPOV means two things:

Our official policy on religion is that we do not have an official policy on religion. Our community of editors includes followers of various religions, as well as many atheists. Please bear this in mind when editing.
 * Snarky point of view — This is the meaning most people refer to. It means that, to keep our articles from being dry and boring, we spice it up with humor, sarcasm, skepticism, satire, and wit.
 * Scientific point of view — Less talked about but arguably more important, the scientific point of view means that our articles take the side of the scientific consensus on an issue. RationalWiki should be and will be highly critical of any unscientific, irrational, or just plain stupid idea, movement, or ideology.

However, our scientific point of view respects the scientific method as the most reliable framework for researching and understanding what happens in our universe. For this reason, we are critical of both religious and secular movements which oppose or ignore scientific thought and knowledge."
 * Nx 15:47, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Well as long as you are providing the "evidence" of the "science". I still contend that the difference is satire. Perhaps you have a different criteria of valid evidence? Lumenos 16:02, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What evidence of what science? Anyway, the difference is that we are not "neutral" (as defined by Wikipedia anyway). While their Existence of God page lists the various arguments but does not take sides, ours would say that it does not exist. Nx 16:15, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * This is how Wikipedia defined neutrality on that link I posted "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that where multiple perspectives on a topic have been published by reliable sources, all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material." I don't image you perceive creationists as having reliable sources, but the question is does RationalWiki use reliable sources? Lumenos 16:44, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps the difference is rather what you consider notable. Where Wikipedia would simply not allow something to be included (due to lack of reliable source), RW would still consider it notable. So Wikipedia has nothing to "refute" in that case because it just deletes it. Lumenos 16:54, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * No, it's not (just) notability, and it's not just the satire (or snark, as we like to call it), though RW contains articles on things that WP would deem non-notable, and snark is an important ingredient in a good RW article. The main point is that while WP does not take sides (in your quote: present all views fairly), RW refutes anti-science, i.e. it takes the side of science. Nx 17:11, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Noooo, present all reliable sources fairly. Creationists have no reliable sources, you see? Lumenos 19:04, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * [Nx removed Lumenos' criticism as well as the criticism section] 19:01, 31 August 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs) (5,879 bytes) (→Criticism and rebuttals - belongs on talk page - please don't accuse me of removing criticism because of bias)
 *  Okay, boss. It is your move. I think I am going offline now. Lumenos 19:19, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * The Existence of God article has arguments, if you click any one of the arguments for God you will find more refutations along side the arguments for. Tell me this, do you know of any argument that is represented in RationalWiki but not Wikipedia? Lumenos 16:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I can't tell, but I'm pretty sure that Wikipedia does not say that God does not exist. You missed my point Nx 17:11, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * No it only offers a number of definitions of gods and tells you why they don't exist. But don't you have a reliable source for this information? Perhaps Wikipedia just isn't following their own policy as well as you are. Lumenos 17:55, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * It does not tell you why they don't exist. It tells you why some people believe they don't exist, and also tells you why some other people believe they do exist. It does not take sides. It does not tell you which one is correct. Nx 18:00, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * But shouldn't it really? I mean if it is really based on reliable sources (as Wikipedia defines them)? Lumenos 18:18, 31 August 2009 (EDT)


 * [Nx removed Lumenos' criticism as well as the criticism section] 19:01, 31 August 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs) (5,879 bytes) (→Criticism and rebuttals - belongs on talk page - please don't accuse me of removing criticism because of bias)
 *  Okay, boss. It is your move. I think I am going offline now. Lumenos 19:19, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Seriously, is this the best criticism you can come up with? That the wiki has no chance to compete with Wikipedia, even though it's not even trying to? That's not even criticism. You can criticize Conservapedia for having delusions of grandeur (Schlafly said that they would surpass Wikipedia in a few years), but RationalWiki isn't even trying to be a general encyclopedia, and it actively enforces this by removing articles that do not fit its mission. Nx 03:29, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Umm let me see if you are understanding the point being made here. (Nothing that you have said has indicated that you do.) We completely agree that the stated goals RW and Wikipedia are different. I'm just wondering whether this is true beyond superficial rhetoric. Why did we discontinue the discussion here and begin editing? Lumenos 05:20, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes, it is true. Nx 05:38, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * In response to your edit (what's with the strikeouts?):

[Nx again deleted this criticism from the article. Here was his stated reason, "Criticism - censoring silliness and one user's misunderstanding of the goals of rationalwiki)" Lumenos 06:54, 1 September 2009 (EDT)] Certain administrator are quite sensitive and controlling when it comes to censoring criticism. For example, watch what happens if you try to suggest that perhaps Wikipedia achieves the stated goals of RationalWiki (without these being the stated goals of Wikipedia) better than RationalWiki does.
 * The strikeouts were there because the statement hadn't become true until after you moved the post here. So I have removed the strikeouts now, and harmony is restored to the universe. ;-) Lumenos 06:56, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Wikipedia cannot achieve the stated goals of RW because of its NPOV policy. Nx 05:38, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

Okay (I'm just going to stop indenting at this point although I am replying to Nx.) Can we analyze your claim that, "Wikipedia cannot achieve the stated goals of RW because of its NPOV"? I think it plausible that Wikipedia's policy of requiring reliable sources (which is the main aspect of that matters here) is more effective at, "analyzing and refuting the anti-science movement, ideas and people." In other words, providing evidence rather then someone simply telling you what they think the truth is. Do you find this to be a plausible theory? Lumenos 06:43, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * (it's called undenting, and it's normal in wiki discussions) This has nothing to do with reliable sources. RationalWiki also references its claims. But that's not the point. The point is that NPOV requires all sides to be presented fairly, and that the article take no side. RW does take a side. Nx 08:00, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I suppose you could say that NPOV implies a sort of "fairness", but they do distinguish between (what they call) "reliable" and "unreliable" sources and I challenge you to find anything in the Wikipedia that states that Creationism is anything but psuedoscience. The Wikipedia states in no uncertain terms that evolution is a fact. . Lumenos 10:20, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Thank you for explaining the term undenting, BTW. Lumenos 10:22, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Lumenos asked, "Does Wikipedia achieve the aims of RationalWiki better than RationalWiki?" Huw Powell responded, "No..." Lumenos 23:06, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Umm like I claim above, this would appear to be a nearly measurable fact. Do you have any web traffic statistics comparing articles that cover the same information, for example? Perhaps you mean, that RW is more effective, ? Do you have any statistics on the number of users of RW vs WP? Lumenos 23:06, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

An very rare example of Lumenos misunderstanding

 * It does not try to compete with English Wikipedia. To put it simply: WP's policies do not allow it to call bullshit (e.g. creation "science" etc.) bullshit. RW can do that, and can also be funny while doing it. There's also nothing about competing with Wikipedia in the site's official goals. In fact some of us are quite zealous when it comes to off-mission articles (e.g. some pretty well written math articles copied from CP, where they were deleted by Ed Poor because he didn't understand them, were deleted on RW because they were off-mission, and WP would always have a better article about the subject anyway). We know that we stand no chance against WP in its home turf. Nx 14:47, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What is the problem with merging the old [Conservapedia] article into Wikipedia? Lack of sources? Lumenos 15:04, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * What old CP article? Nx 15:14, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Sorry I misread. Lumenos 15:39, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

Does Wikipedia achieve the aims of RationalWiki better than RationalWiki?
I'd be interested in a responce to the following question: Nx said, "The main point is that while WP does not take sides (in your quote: present all views fairly)..." Lumenos replied, "Noooo, present all reliable sources fairly. Creationists have no reliable sources, you see?" Lumenos 06:10, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * There's a point I'd like to make relative to this, and RW's content, that I see no one mentioning above. Sorry I can't link to examples right now, but we don't just write "articles" on "topics".  We do things that are completely un-encyclopedic, the best examples of which are our "side by side" pages.  We take all of some original source, for instance, Behe's "Q & A" from his Amazon author page, and put it into a series of tables and refute/debunk/argue with them one point at a time.  Regarding sources, yes, we try to use good references for our work, but also we use arguments and present opinion and conclusions ("original research") in our pieces.  And, to basically answer the question in the header, no.  They may have greater resources on many topics we are also interested in, and provide great background, but we go that one step further, as pointed out at the very beginning of this discussion - we feel free to call bullshit bullshit. Huw Powell 16:07, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * One could view this as, not so much a criticism of RationalWiki per se, but a criticism of the stated goals which do not mention any of these fine points you have made. Lumenos 22:24, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * And this brings me to the real "wandalously" crafty reason for this "review"/"interview". If RationalWiki were run by consensus (or "mob rule" or some such funny name for it?), than someone such as yourself should be able to edit those goals to reflect something that is really unique about RW. Lumenos 22:29, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Are others welcome to come and call you on your BS? (Note if that link doesn't work it is because WikiSynergy is having technical difficulties, presently.) Lumenos 22:35, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

You have no clue what reliable sources means at WP do you? There are plenty of "reliable sources" for creationist and other bat shit crazy ideas. Read what WP defines as a RS. WP presents bat shit crazy ideas in a far too sympathetic light. There is also the problem that WP is saturated that it is difficult to follow articles, and they often slip under the radar, with crazy people and their pet ideas being written by proponents. That doesn't happen on RW because the content creation on the site is easily monitored. Also WP is descriptive, RW can be both descriptive and proscriptive. We encourage original research and synthesis of sources and information. We can extend our analysis of ideas and people and movements in directions that WP can not because it is an encyclopedia. There are many examples of ways that we do things different than WP and for our niche we are doing very well. 76.113.112.137 14:11, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Are you new here? If you read back a little, you will see that I'm only referring to RW's three stated goals that are found at the top of the article. I'm not arguing that Wikipedia is better than RationalWiki. Presently I would probably rather edit RationalWiki, myself. Here is where I'm at now, if you want to debate the merits of certain "scientific" claims. Lumenos 16:16, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You said, "There are plenty of 'reliable sources' for creationist and other bat shit crazy ideas" Lumenos 10:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Notice the terms, "respectable" and "mainstream". Couldn't you figure a way to argue that a bad source was not either as "respectable" or as "mainstream" as a better source you have? If you have one source that conflicts another, and it is more respectable, for example, more "scientific" couldn't you replace the claim made by the less reliable source and add the claim of the more reliable source? Then your audience would be what, maybe 20 times the size? And wouldn't they be much less likely to already agree with you? Lumenos 16:16, 2 September 2009 (EDT)


 * You may wonder why I would think that would matter. If you got your eyes open, I will tell you. This increases your odds of actually persuading someone, which would seem to be the underlying meaning of RW goal #1: "Analyzing and refuting the anti-science movement.." I suppose you could just do the "refuting" in your own mind, but once you're no longer a believer in "the anti-science movement", you're going to have to refute it, in someone else's mind, in order to achieve the stated objective. Otherwise you are not refuting you are only affirming. Does that make sense? Lumenos 16:16, 2 September 2009 (EDT)


 * This is all very speculative, but no one seems to disagree that Wikipedia has a larger and more diverse audience. Lumenos 16:16, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Nx had another uuuh "rebuttal" he would like to "share", "12:26, 4 September 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs) (6,426 bytes) (What part of RationalWiki is not trying to be an encyclopedia do you not understand?)" Lumenos 10:07, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * All these IP address editors. Finally a real person. I'm not arguing that RW wants to be encyclopedic. I guess you win? Lumenos 10:07, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You are arguing that RW wants to compete with Wikipedia. Nx 10:15, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Ummm I believe at this juncture a "lol" would be appropriate. I don't know where you got that idea, but I can tell you what I believe on that matter and it is quite the opposite. Lumenos 10:50, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * "I don't see how this wiki could possibly expect to compete realistically with Wikipedia, in terms of the "official" goals that are listed at the top of this article. It does however have an interesting and active community and Wikipedia does not allow satire. (Lumenos) [Update: And you can say dirty words. :) Lumenos 15:04, 31 August 2009 (EDT)]" Nx 10:53, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Uhh yeah? But the truth is you rather try to avoid competition with Wikipedia, right? Lumenos 12:11, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

Ok, I give up. You win. Nx 12:33, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * It takes a big man, Nx. You are that big man. Lumenos 10:28, 5 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I hope you realise that he's probably doig this because he can't be bothered, not due to actually thinking you're right. Phantom Hoover 10:44, 5 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No no that's not it. I could feel the sense of acceptance. See me and Nx have this connection. After you get to know him a little better you will know what I mean. But we "shook hands" and now its time to put this in the ole' archive and move on with our lives. ;-) Lumenos 10:50, 5 September 2009 (EDT)

No, Wikipedia cannot, does not, and never will
English Wikipedia cannot present such things as these three examples from RationalWiki:
 * http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Behe:The_Edge_of_Evolution,_Interview
 * http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation
 * http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Expelled:Leader%27s_Guide

Wikipedia may have smoothly-worded critiques on Behe or Expelled, but will never simply say it as we see it. Huw Powell 23:04, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
 * But the first question is, which is more effective; emphatically expressing your opinion, or providing more evidence of it (without your opinion)? Lumenos 21:21, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * The second question is, "Where is the evidence likely to be more effective?" Where ever RationalWiki has third-party published sources, where would they be more effective in reaching those who may be undecided? RationalWiki or Wikipedia?
 * I notice that RationalWiki has Wikipedia listed as a source numerous times. This demonstrates that any goal that RationalWiki was trying to achieve, was already being done through the Wikipedia. Secondly, that without Wikipedia, RationalWiki would be less able to meet it's goals. Imagine all the other skeptic/atheist publications that depend on Wikipedia, who may have never heard of RationalWiki. Now imagine all the Creationist publications that do the same thing. For example, I've noticed that the largest old-Earth creationist publication, uses Wikipedia as a source, in one of their newsletters. (You should actually get the original source out of the Wikipedia because anyone can write anything in a wiki.) Lumenos 21:21, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I "agree" that there are good reasons to have a wiki with a narrower focus than Wikipedia, but this doesn't mean it will come close to being as effective as Wikipedia, "despite" the fact that Wikipedia could be used also to prove opposite beliefs, if these have sufficient "evidence". In other words, I think that Wikipedia is more likely to ferret out the truth, with less words wasted on preconceptions, bias, and opinion. Lumenos 21:21, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Could you attempt to answers just one of these questions this time Huw, instead of making yet another section, for the same topic? Lumenos 21:21, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Have you even read the pages I posted above? Wikipedia has many doubtful articles from a skeptical perspective - that is, they are presenting things we disagree with in a non-critical manner.  Yes, wikipedia has far more content in their science articles, and in many areas there is simply no need for RW to bother writing them.  But no, they don't do what we do at all, let alone "better".  Huw Powell 19:00, 20 September 2009 (EDT)
 * "Better" is ambiguous, I changed it to "a far greater extent". Lumenos 00:31, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I think you mean naturalistic perspective, not skeptical. Lumenos 00:31, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What is more important or effective, Huw Powell and his friends emphatically stating their opinion, or this, "a statement by 68 national and international science academies lists the following as facts, established by numerous observations and independently-derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines, without any contradiction from scientific evidence: that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old and has shown continuing change; that life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago, and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin.[10]" Lumenos 00:31, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * This article has numerous sources listed. Do you believe this information could not be imported into the Wikipedia? For example in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_earth ? Where do you think it would be more effective at refuting YEC (not just affirming what you already believe)? Then all you have to do is link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism#Age_of_the_Earth to that article or you could work that information into the YEC article. Lumenos 00:31, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No, it couldn't, because WP has a neutral point of view, and taking that page would violate it. Phantom Hoover 06:45, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I've explained what NPOV means in the Wikipedia. This is one of many points y'all failed to address. You don't debate or make your case. You just delete what you don't want to hear.  You are altering a quote, BTW. And this is against WikiIndex policy. Phantom Hoover and Huw Powel (Human), are both bureaucrats at RationalWiki. Are these your usual methods of thought control there? Lumenos 13:30, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Wikipedia has an article called, . Does this violate NPOV? Here is the NPOV policy again, Notice the terms, "respectable" and "mainstream". In case you aren't familiar with the Wikipedia, the "respectable mainstream" usually means the majority of the "scientific" community. Lumenos 14:19, 21 September 2009 (EDT)

I notice you totally ignored the other two articles I linked to above. Also, those diffs where PH & I edited the article to remove unsubstantiated claims were not "editing a quote", they were removing what you wrote and put quote marks around. I also see you are still citing "policy" by linking to a page you created and continue to keep making a mess of.

Please address whether wikipedia can do what we did with the Expelled leaders' guide and the Behe "interview". Huw Powell 19:35, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Actually Felix said his edit of the policy page was only a proposal. But it is on the official etiquette page, that we are not to be deleting things. I don't really think that is a great rule however. I had hopes that we could find some criteria to resolve disputes without arbitration or capitulation. But I can't think of any way to do this objectively. Tired, Yoda is. Lumenos 23:02, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Of course I need to address all of your points while you ignore most of mine. Lumenos 23:02, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
 * About those book reviews. I started reading the one about Behe, came to the first "source" which is another long and disorganized diatribe, this time by only one person. Have you read these RationalWiki articles? On the topics covered by these books, are there any major arguments that aren't addressed in the Wikipedia? Lumenos 23:02, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
 * This seems kinda like trying to prove that a commercial that is on during the Super Bowl, is going to have more of an influence than a commercial during a rerun of Mash. I can't exactly prove it with absolute certainty. Some Wikipedia pages may be less noticed than some RationalWiki pages, especially if RationalWiki features the page. In general, it would seem that editing the Wikipedia pages on the major topics, is more likely to have an influence. Lumenos 23:02, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Whoa, whoa. I'm away for a week, and the fighting starts again. I have a life outside WikiIndex. How about you, Lumenos and Phantom Hoover? Let's try to solve this peacefully (check your personal talk pages, btw). Felix Pleşoianu | talk 11:20, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * My life outside WikiIndex may be supported by my edits in WikiIndex. For example, Lumeniki debuts a new invention for backyard solar electricity generation, for which I am a sales representative. Thus my interest in "spam" policy. ;-) I believe Huw has a similar arrangement with RationalWiki and his speaker business, which may explain him being probably the most prolific editor there and his interest here. Lumenos 13:38, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm trying not to cause any "collateral damage" in our "fight", but I believe I have made my case while Hoover and Huw simply declare it "idiocy" and delete criticism. Nx was a bit more honest, that is why I'm sad to see him go. They really have no reason to put much effort into debate if they will be allowed to do this. Lumenos 13:38, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Put a comparisons of wikis section in the RationalWiki article
[I copied this, uuum not because Nx was off-topic, he was uber-topic. I don't know what that means but it is not off topic. Lumenos 17:48, 31 August 2009 (EDT)] Ok, I think I understand now, you're arguing for including a link to Liberapedia in this article. If that is so, I'm afraid your efforts to to defeat me in this debate have been in vain, because I have no problem with that (though your argument is a bit stretched because Liberapedia is a parody of CP, while RW refutes CP). But then again I'm not familiar with Liberapedia's content enough to make a judgement here. Nx 16:01, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * That is such a perfect way of putting it, "Liberapedia is a parody of CP, while RW refutes CP" certainly this should be included in a comparative review section. Lumenos 17:48, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * From Liberapedia: "However its creator stated that it was created to parody Conservapedia and advises that: "most articles should take stereotypical liberal views and distort them to the extreme"". What is your point again? Nx 17:53, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * See section name update. Lumenos 18:26, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Liberapedia is incredibly badly written (and is getting worse with time). RationalWiki is written better every day (that it is on line). Huw Powell 07:25, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Okay? Are you submitting this for the comparison section if it is created? Are you in favor of turning the "Similar Wikis" section into a "Comparison with other wikis" section, in other words? Lumenos 10:36, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps this should more properly go in the Liberapedia article. While it has been stated that :  "Liberapedia is a parody of CP" and   "most articles should take stereotypical liberal views and distort them to the extreme" if I look at recent changes I'm not sure that  most articles do either of these things. I see various articles on interstellar phenomena which are written in a factual manner; an article on Hell which, while sarcastic, does not seem to fit the description; a factual article on the British NHS.  After a bit of looking you come to "Atheist" which perhaps, sort of, fits the description.[--Bob M 06:18, 2 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * Yeah so then I move it there for you and you whisper to the authorities that I'm traumatizing the talk pages. I aaaaint falling for that one again, buddy. Maybe what I should do is go create a section there, on an unrelated topic so everyone will want to post this information there. Then I'll use the super-safe strikeout to strike out the section/topic name so it will no longer be false at least. It is just impossible to create a debate map with you people. But that's how you like it isn't it? :P Uumm that having been said, I don't mean you Bob, you might be all for debate maps, who knows? Lumenos 12:24, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Frankly, I think it needs to re-define itself and after it has done that this question should be re-addressed.--Bob M 06:18, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Well I think you are straying from the topic but, do you believe it doesn't fit the "official" definition (or inclusion policy) or rather that there is no official definition (inclusion policy)? There is an exclusion policy. Try writing about abortion. You can't even criticize abortion (or answer critics) at Wikinfo. Sometimes it all looks like one big wiggerpedia to me. Uhh with everyone wiggin' out, you know? Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What question? Lumenos 12:30, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * My original question in the original section from where you moved this whole thing in the section titled "What is Liberapedia about anyway". Perhaps all this rearranging has left you a bit confused? Nx 14:12, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Huum are you striking that out because it contains the lie that I moved something to this section? Which statement was moved Nx? I asked you if you mind being quoted, and you told me, "No." Do you remember that when we were over there on my talk page? You know it is blue pill in the morning, red pill at night right? You didn't get those confused again did you? :-) Lumenos 17:29, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps you are right. Oooooor perhaps Bob is referring to my question of, 'Are you in favor of turning the "Similar Wikis" section into a "Comparison with other wikis" section, in other words?' Since we are here in what may appear to be a of sub-argument of that argument, let's just say that he is. I fail to see the need for further evaluation of Liberapedia, because we have already established its notability as a similar wiki due to the obvious schlafervative connections. Lumenos 17:29, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * This is really, more of a general question of whether readers would gain more from a mere list of "similar wikis" or the full blown comparison. A table perhaps! A table would be marvelous, wouldn't it? But why limit ourselves to discussing this one instance, when we could be writing an article format guide! Tables for everyone! Tables everywhere! Massive tables, full of interesting tid bits! Subtables within tables for those nuanced subtleties! Lumenos 17:29, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Okaaay... Nx 17:34, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes it is okay. Doors are open all around you... I've got it! The rows shall be the wikis! Half way there! Now all we need are the columns. Lumenos 18:09, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm leaning more toward making the columns the wikis, now. Because I think there are likely to be fewer wikis then there are comparison factors and we want to reduce the horizontal scrolling as much as possible. Lumenos 23:24, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Couldn't we make a template or something that is the chart of a bunch of similar wikis, and then put that on all of their pages? Lumenos 18:48, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No it would be easier to copy the table, then we could make it more customized. That is, if we have consensus on this proposal. Lumenos 06:09, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Okay so we could start with just this wiki, since there doesn't seem to be any opposition on this point and Nx says "Okaaay..." Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

On what features or qualities should we compare any wikis (or these wikis in particular)?
Any suggestions as to how we might compare all these similar wikis? Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * The license. Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * The inclusion policy. Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Which opinions do they allow to be expressed, if any? Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * "Officially" Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * "In actual practice" Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * User review ratings. Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Multiple categories for the subjects they cover. For example? Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)


 * Like talking to yourself? Oh, and what wikis are we supposed to be comparing? Huw Powell 23:05, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
 * The irony of your statement is that after you reply to one of these, I'm no longer "talking to myself" (keeping notes publicly). Lumenos 19:35, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * My proposal is to compare any of the "related wikis". Those would be the ones in the same categories, or the ones listed under "see also". Nx posted a list, but I've found some of those to be inactive wikis. This isn't a high priority for me at the moment. I'm guessing you think this to be a bad or unrealistic idea? Lumenos 19:35, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I think we should also move wikis that have been inactive or unavailable, out of the categories. Do this by putting a colon before the category like so "category:creationism", so that it will appear as a link in the dead wiki's article, but the wiki will not show up in the category. This would make the categories more useful for finding similar wikis, as Nx suggested. Lumenos 19:35, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

Should A Storehouse of Knowledge (ASK) be included as a "similar wiki" or in a comparison table?
I think A Storehouse of Knowledge ought to be included. It is represented in the criticism section, but being that it seems to be administrated better than Conservapedia (which isn't saying much) it does have that in common with RationalWiki. They are both alternatives or offshoots of Conservapedia. Lumenos 23:00, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

Should Wikipedia be included in the comparison table?
I don't think Wikipedia should be included in a similar wikis section but I think it should be included in nearly any comparison table because it has content on nearly any subject, and more of this content may be added/"addable". Lumenos 23:30, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

Notification of the service failure
07:06, 4 September 2009 192.43.227.18 (Talk) (6,426 bytes) (Undid revision 70356 by Lumenos (talk) Don't get your nickers in a twist, it will be back up in two days.)
 * Have we met? Lumenos 05:28, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

09:47, 4 September 2009 203.113.240.49 (Talk) (6,426 bytes) (Well it will be back in two days and this article makes you look like a dumbass in the mean time)
 * Say someone looks at the article, but they don't read the whole thing. Instead they click a link and find the site is not available. Then they figure WikiIndex isn't up to date. This is the situation I am trying to avoid. Why do you keep moving the notification down and changing it to a claim that is controversial and unverified? Lumenos 05:58, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * "Then they figure WikiIndex isn't up to date." Then the next step would instead be to read the entire article perhaps? Nx 06:21, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Why read an article about a site that isn't functioning? Lumenos 09:57, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Is the problem that list of sites where RationalWikians are hanging out while the site is down? Lumenos 10:39, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

Oh, **** this place
The sysops and crats are so incompetent it's not funny. Huw Powell 05:57, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Did you notice the last edit you made before that happened, Wiseguy? May I direct you to the section titled, "Huw Powel removed four similar wikis from the RationalWiki article." Do we have to watch every edit you make? Lumenos 12:37, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Every time I think a person is sane here they turn mad. Phantom Hoover 06:06, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What the fuck? What kind of moron would remove an entire page of information and lock it so no one can edit it? These people have no idea how to run a wiki, preventing people from adding correct information, fixing gross grammatical errors and then locking it to preserve it the way you want, is the antithesis of a collaborative project. Any one recommended this place to Ed Poor? Pi 07:12, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * OH BAM! Pi VS Dilley. Nothing to see here. Please be gentle with my debates with, he was doing so well I would hate for that to be forgotten. Lumenos 07:53, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * UPDATE people SET sanity="insane" WHERE person="Lumenos"; Phantom Hoover 08:05, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Oh oh yeah. weal uuh this homo was huggin up on me, now he won't even be my friend. Lumenos 08:08, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * ??? Phantom Hoover 08:10, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm jus kidd'n bro, I'm sure that waz a Jesus hug Lumenos 08:14, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * ?????? Phantom Hoover 08:21, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes, a question. You there. What do you want to know? Lumenos 11:34, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Fork off. How old are you, fourteen? Five? If not, show it. Phantom Hoover 13:46, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm unfamiliar with some of your terminology as you may be unfamiliar with mine. Forking off? And what was that gibberish about turning me insane? Do you feel that you have such powers? Lumenos 15:27, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No one should have to read a page of crap to understand you, seriously you are a dick. 203.113.240.49 18:55, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Should someone have to  ? Lunemos 04:32, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Pardon this Lunemos gentleman, he is no one important here. Thank you for your feedback on this talk page. Now that we are aware that someone else has an interest in the incomplete "debate maps", I have relocated these to this subpage [so you would not "have to"  read them. However Nx moved them back out. Ummm maybe you mean the editors should not have to read them in order to have the article the way they want. Well they didn't really. The only issue that was about the article was the similar wikis issue and Nx didn't really disagree with the inclusion of Liberapedia, he was more here to defend RationalWiki from (perceived) misconceptions. Ummm or maybe you are referring to the issues other than the debate maps, however I think those are mostly valid arguments and therefore I guess disagree, if that is your view.], BUT DON'T GO IN THERE!!!! It is an incomplete debate map, and full of ikilumen which no one should attempt to handle, unless they are a trained professional. Howevar the RationalWiki vs Wikipedia debate, is highly recommended. Great show, Nx! Great show!  Lumenos (Updated Lumenos 15:36, 11 September 2009 (EDT))
 * When you post as an IP address, "we" know less about how much your opinion should matter. Are you someone who has been involved in this? Are you gonna stick around if you get your way? Are you representing someone sympathetic to this wiki or someone looking for a wiki? Is your opinion biased? Do you represent our "target audience"? Why should we care what you write? (I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't care.) Lumenos 19:37, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Huw, Dilley made the proposal while most of us involved in these conflicts, kinda ignored it, until now. I would think it would be in the interest of WikiIndex to provide more warning or instructions for how we might have avoided this. But I tried to get people interested in developing policy, and, as you have said, few were interested in this besides me and Proxima (oh yeah, and Dilley ;-). When you got no rules you don't know how to avoid unpleasant rulings. Lumenos 19:28, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

Huw Powel removed four similar wikis from the RationalWiki article
(Note, this is the last edit before they were all moved to the talk pages. Coincidence?)

I have inquired as to how this is helping WikiIndex, on his talk page. Lumenos 12:31, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * How were they "similar", apart from being wikis? An encyclopedia; RW is not. A parody of a conservative encyclopedia, RW is not; what were the other two?  An atheism wiki?  RW is not. ??? Huw Powell 22:14, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Do you have a brain tumor or is the cat walking on your keyboard? They have similar content, OBVIOUSLY. Lumenos 01:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT) (I'm not really as frustrated as I sound, I only talk like this to Huw because that is how he talks to everyone else. Lumenos 01:50, 10 September 2009 (EDT) )

''See also is for related things. Categories are for similar things. Only those wikis that are actually related (besides Proxima Centauri having an account on all of them) should be listed on see also. Nx 15:04, 9 September 2009 (EDT)'' (quote by Lumenos)
 * I'll change the section title to "Similar wikis". Lumenos 01:50, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Since you managed to wikilawyer yourself out of my definition, let me rephrase that. Similar wikis should be listed in categories, related wikis should be in the article, either in the text or in the See also section.
 * Lumenos, please provide a reason for reverting my edit other than "we don't do it like wikipedia because I say so". I have given a reason for my removal of those wikis: they can be found in the categories. Nx 03:46, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * My, one could easily think that were a quote you were making there, which would mean it was a misquote. Lumenos 13:36, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I guess we got this all straitened out now? Lumenos 13:38, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Nx provides his rational here. Lumenos 15:26, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Service outage half over
The wiki is up and readable, although the database is locked while the material created at teflpedia is ported over. Huw Powell 18:42, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

RationalWiki is alive once more. Huw Powell 19:17, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

Informative!
After having read this article I must say even I have learned interesting facts about RationalWiki, I particularly liked the in-depth tag coverage. Keep up the good work!. Tmtoulouse 14:09, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What is tag coverage? Lumenos 01:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Could it be |337 h@x0r5, "Anonymous", or The Man?
(For those of you unfamiliar with leetspeak, that means, "Could it be elite hackers?")

My internet has lost its connection a few times recently (maybe 4?). That is not common. Yesterday I was writing back and forth with and another editor on Lumeniki. Referata (where Lumeniki is hosted) went down for 15-20 minutes. This is not unheard of but it has only happened a few times in the last few years. Maybe once or twice a year. And it usually recovers faster. Hoovie first wanted me to make him a bureaucrat, then made this funny, funny joke, "We outnumber Lumenos now! Quick, get him while his back is turned! Let us raze this wiki to the ground and build something better on the burnt ashes and skulls!". I spoke with Yaron Koren who provides the greatest free service you could ever ask for. He said, "It was some MySQL hiccup, that went away after about 15-20 minutes". I recalled that RationalWiki's crash was "most likely due to a MySQL connection error". I think it most likely that MySQL just isn't that stable but I thought I would mention these experiences in case anyone has any more information that may be relevant. Lumenos 14:16, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Note the timing of the RationalWiki crash, when Tmtoulouse was on vacation. Lumenos 14:22, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * MySQL is one of the most used db systems on the web. Wikipedia uses it. Google uses it. Facebook uses it. I would argue that it's pretty stable if all these websites use it. And a mysql crash wouldn't take the entire server down. Trent said it was a hardware error, but he didn't provide details. I'll ignore your conspiracy theories and insinuations. Nx 15:15, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the info Nx. I'm going to ignore this conspiracy theory myself, it was obviously the work of lumetics. We need to keep these people from being able to slip this information into WikiIndex. Lumenos 01:34, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Is this you posting over at Referata, Nx? Lumenos 03:52, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I posted my consideration of Nx's latest demand. Lumenos 16:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * He seems to believe he has some authority here to make such demands: 18:25, 10 September 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs) (1,677 bytes) (Which part of You may NOT edit this page do you not understand?) Lumenos 16:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Maybe twenty minutes ago, computer went off. I don't remember if the lights did also, but I heard the speakers click so it seems this was a power failure. I'm guessing it is probably due to other factors, but I've heard of such things happening. Lumenos 16:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Some editors have been showing an interest in small-scale solar steam power, lately. One claims to be a mechanical engineer with the US Department of Energy. The other is using the name of our beloved Tmtoulouse. Lumenos 06:35, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Boy this section is so hard to notice now that Nx dragged that big debate map out from the subpage. ;-) He requested/demanded that I not cyberstalk him. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Is that like just putting a nic in a search engine? Lumenos 16:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Sorry about...
That edit where I must have put the Huw Powel section up at the top by accident. Nx reverted. My bad. Didn't notice that until now. Lumenos 02:43, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * See, this is why you should leave other people's posts alone. Nx 02:46, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Sorry to make some work for you but I think the "article" is more organized now. Lumenos 03:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * It's not an article, it's a talk page. It's not your job to organize talk pages. In fact you're doing a very bad job. Nx 03:43, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What is my job, Boss? Lumenos 03:53, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

These so-called "similar" wikis
User:Nx [seems to] think there is a conspiracy to include the following wikis [these wikis were included] because User:Proxima Centauri has an account on them. Lumenos 04:51, 10 September 2009 (EDT) [(Updated the preceding post Lumenos 06:43, 11 September 2009 (EDT)) (Note, I'm fairly certain that Nx edited this post to break the link to "User:Nx", without mentioning this. This could have the effect of making me look stupid(er)... or this could also have the effect of setting a sort of precedent for editing others comments without noting this. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Lumenos 06:48, 11 September 2009 (EDT) )]
 * This is getting silly. Nx 04:55, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * By bringing closer to the public eye the motives behind the editors? Lumenos 04:59, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Please tell what my motives are, I'd like to know. Nx 05:03, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm not sure. My first guess would be that you are trying to remove competing wikis. Lumenos 05:20, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * But then you brought up Proxima. Lumenos 05:20, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Now I'm thinking this particular wandalous behavior was likely the result of adherence to a sort of "neutral point of view" and following conventions which have been common on WikiIndex. (-; Note, this is unlike deleting the citation (whoever did that) or removing the descriptions of these wikis, which would seem to be the result of bias and censorship/revenge. Lumenos 06:43, 11 September 2009 (EDT)


 * FreeThoughtPedia
 * Iron Chariots
 * Atheism Wiki

Similar wikis added by Nx
Do you not agree that these are similar? Do you perhaps want to CENSOR!!!1!! these for some reason? Nx 05:38, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * American Atheists
 * Atheists of Utah
 * Godless Wiki
 * SkepticWiki
 * Metapedia
 * EvoWiki
 * CreationWiki
 * Researching Intelligent Design
 * A Storehouse of Knowledge
 * BibleWiki (biblewiki.us)
 * Christianity Knowledge Base
 * Citizens for the Ten Commandments
 * WikiIslam
 * MuslimWiki
 * Astro Wiki
 * Astro Wikipedia
 * Thelemapedia
 * Vedic Astrology Wiki
 * Wikipedia
 * Uncyclopedia
 * Encyclopedia Dramatica
 * TinWiki
 * Cityultima
 * ComplaintWiki
 * Well uum. We could work on that comparison table, I suppose. Lumenos 05:41, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What comparison table? Nx 05:44, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Talk:RationalWiki (en) Lumenos 07:09, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Kinda being snarky there, but I've worked on . It is controversial but this kind of stuff seem appropriate for WikiIndex. If not in the RationalWiki article, somewhere else. Lumenos 13:53, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * They look like they are similar, but I didn't realize there were so many. Your point is okay. I more understand your argument now. But I'm not sure the wikis that are being allowed to advertise in the RationalWiki article are more worthy than these others. Lumenos 13:48, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * These lists take up so much vertical space. Working them into paragraphs comparing them to RationalWiki would be better. Lumenos 13:52, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Move to article page - vote
As I find this discussion page a little incomprehensible and as the statement at the top says: Move to article page when agreed upon by 3 Sysops and 3 people involved I propose that we do just that.--Bob M 08:13, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Personally I'd rather not, unless critical views are going to be linked to, in the article. Lumenos 13:56, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I second BobM. There is no consideration given to "nay" votes in the line at the top, btw.  Good luck finding 3 sysops, though. Huw Powell 19:41, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I must admit that I felt that the "three sysops" objective was setting the bar rather high. Possibly we need to propose some more sysops.--Bob M 06:55, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Just noticed that Proxima doesn't seem to be a sysop anymore. Lumenos 09:23, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Oh, she's an "interwiki". Lumenos 17:30, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Move what to article page? The only thing we need the sysops for is to unprotect the article. We still have no policy for notability, verifiablity, or POV (although Dilley doesn't prefer "NPOV"). Edit sparing isn't ideal, but if we don't do that, certain editors have assumed the article is non-controversial. Lumenos 07:35, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I think the word you want is spelled "sparring". In fact, I'm sure of it. But the phrase you might be better off using is "edit warring", since that's the common usage. Huw Powell 02:27, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Why don't we work on the article while it is here? Lumenos 07:35, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

Somebody created 'Rationalwikі'. I don't know if that will arouse the administration's furry but they let me make a policy page with no policies on it. I think it should be moved to something like 'RationalWiki (temp)'. Lumenos 18:19, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * On the other hand, my policy page didn't seem to be against the administrations wishes, whereas this would seem to be. Lumenos 18:25, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I moved it to 'RationalWiki (temp)' and edited it. Lumenos 19:43, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Vote for re-insertion
--Bob M 08:13, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Didn't you just do that? I vote, only under agreement that it allows linking to in-depth, well organized, criticism such as Dilley's idea for the Conservapedia page to have a 'Constructive Criticism of Conservapedia'. But I favor rather a page for real debate maps (better than the ones above). (Note those debate maps suck because, they were not completed, because I found out half way through, my debate opponents did not want to create a debate map.) Lumenos 14:17, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Whatever your idea of a "debate map" means (can I have a link to what you mean?), all I see is you mucking up others' comments where ever you feel like it. Huw Powell 19:42, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Wad r u, like a cyberstork or somtin? I wasn't expecting nobody to be reading all this crap. I whipped up a definition of debate map, at Lumeniki. I ask you the same question, "What is a debate map?" (What should we have it mean?) Lumenos 07:22, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * What comment have I "mucked up", in your view? Lumenos 07:38, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You've moved comments, added comments to comments, deleted comments, moved comments to pointless subpages and generally made it impossible for anybody to keep track of the debate. I'm not bothering with links because anybody who looks at your edits will find an example without too much effort. rpeh 13:33, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * On deleting comments:
 * Rpeh, do you know of any comment that I deleted before you deleted a few paragraphs written by both you and I on the grounds that you think me a troll? Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Since that time I removed maybe half a sentence from one of your comments [and I posted that I had edited your comment]. It seemed trollish to me. Should I be deleting any of your comments that seem trollish to me? Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)[Updated Lumenos 18:07, 11 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * The only other comment I remember deleting was one of Phantom Hoover's, here. It seemed like attention whoring at the time. Now I think you were right to undelete it. I removed the tag suggesting it be moved to your talk page. [but neglected to notice that had commented on it, so I put it back and replied.] Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)[Updated Lumenos 18:07, 11 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * I sometimes delete my own comments, if I change my mind and no one has responded to it. Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Why debate craps where moved to subpages: Someone complained that, "No one should have to read a page of crap to understand you, seriously you are a dick. 203.113.240.49 18:55, 6 September 2009 (EDT)" so, to prevent people from "having to" read it, I moved it to a subpage and put warning signs, saying that it doesn't always make sense. Nx moved it back out, so I guess people who can't resist the urge, will "have to" read it. Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * If I change my mind about something I update my comments. I thought that is why we have a strikeout function, for example. [If I add something, I put it in brackets like this. When I do this now I usually post the time that I did the update.] If you want to keep track of the changes I made, use the diff. Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT) [Update Lumenos 17:41, 11 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * Lumpy, the "page of crap" they were referring to was your external link to some junk on your wiki, not the contents of the talk page... Huw Powell 02:31, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Assuming that is true: Dear IP address, if you want to understand me, you will have to read some things that I write. If you tell me you are doing so, and ask questions about it, then I might be able to explain it or find my own confusion. If you don't want to understand me, then you don't have to read the page. Why is that a problem? Lumenos 05:37, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Also on moving (and otherwise changing) comments: it's supposed to happen. Hint: this is a wiki. It's the fate of comments to be refactored into actual page content eventually. If you want a permanent record of a debate, use a forum. I vote to reinstate the page content, criticism included, and work on it instead of debating debatable debates. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 01:36, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Did I cover everything? Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

--rpeh 13:40, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Uh what is this here for? Lumenos 17:18, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Maybe to make it look like I deleted your comment? Lumenos 18:10, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * No, it was a "vote". Mine vanished in the above hoopla.  Doesn't matter, if two or three of us stop editing, it'll just be you talking to yourself here on WI.  Have fun, since you seem to enjoy that. Huw Powell 02:31, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Oh. I guess if you don't know that then you are not supposed to be voting? Lumenos 05:39, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * If y'all don't object then I can clean this page up and make it more hospitable to newcomers. May even invite some people who may have felt intimidated by the RationalWikian convention mafia. ;-) Lumenos 06:01, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * It was a post in a section called "Vote for re-insertion" and made with an edit comment of added vote too, so it really shouldn't confuse you so much. And please don't move more stuff around as it will just mess things up even more. rpeh 06:40, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

- Huw Powell 02:31, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

--Lumenos 19:34, 12 September 2009 (EDT) (This here is a vote to unprotect the article page, not an endorsement of any version of the article.)

Phantom Hoover 07:53, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

I've just (tentatively) restored and unprotected the article. Let's see if this helps. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 01:14, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

Time to end this war
[The following two paragraphs are a reply to Phantom Hoover's comment, here. It was moved by Felix. Lumenos 20:32, 24 September 2009 (EDT)]
 * An anonymous editor claimed that they had proven a number of things. Without deleting this, I posted the fact that I had cited Wikipedia policy and given an example to make my case, and that none of this was done by the opposition, in their "rebuttals". This apparently was too "controversial" as well, so Phantom Hoover reverted to the version with all their unsubstantiated claims. Now he has deleted the criticism for maybe the 8th time, on the grounds that I hadn't responded to Huw, when in fact I had, at that time. Lumenos 14:53, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * There are a many here who are sympathetic to RationalWiki, but not many who are sympathetic to WikiIndex having critical reviews. If I make up for this imbalance, then I am accused of domination. It becomes a lot of work when editors like and Huw Powel, are allowed to delete things and require others to rewrite them, when they put little effort into editing or real debate.  is much more reasonable and  was at least as reasonable as I am. Lumenos 14:53, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Lumenos... look. You came to Phantom Hoover's talk page, you posted more in one edit than the entire discussion between me and him, all while ignoring the message I left on your talk page. Does that sound reasonable to you? Felix Pleşoianu | talk 15:38, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I suppose that could be what you were calling "giving in to provocation". I'm still learning your ideals on this. Lumenos 20:32, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Seriously, I want to find a real, peaceful solution to this, and you're making it really hard. Both you and Phantom Hoover seem to have an obsession with RationalWiki. Why aren't you battling over there? I'll remind you there are thousands of other wikis listed on this site, and none of the others has generated such controversy. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 15:56, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I would like to make it clear that my obsession consists entirely of checking recent changes about once every two hours, and acting appropriately. Phantom Hoover 16:07, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * There are plenty of other "appropriate actions" you could take around here. Cunningham knows we need all the help we can get. You obviously have a lot of spare time and a love for wikis, yet you choose to focus them against a single other editor. You may have a good reason, but I don't think you're doing the right thing. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 01:47, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
 * It depends on what you mean by "battling". My comments on this talk page are here because they concern what to put in the article here. I don't mind if we move debates to Lumeniki, RationalWiki (en), or wherever. If you "delete" them, then we would still have those options. Lumenos 20:32, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
 * As I see it, there are two separate conflicts. I have rewritten the criticism a number of times. It seems it is improving, but this process is slow and it creates the other conflict with you. The solution would be, as you suggest, to do this somewhere else, but I think they would be quite happy with no criticism and they don't know yet whether they should have to do any of this work, or if [we] will let them delete it, as they presently have. Lumenos 20:32, 24 September 2009 (EDT) [I just read the RationalWiki article and found that it is not consistent with what I had thought. I thought Phantom Hoover had recently deleted the link to the debate about the criticism but (unless someone is tampering with the edit history) he did not. They did delete the "criticism", as I said, but I would NOT have objected or mentioned this, had I realized that they left the link to the debate. Many of my statements and my general attitude were influenced by this belief. I believe I have corrected all statements I have made on this assumption (on this page), and I apologize for this misunderstanding. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)]
 * Heh. You just said it yourself: "they would be quite happy with no criticism and they don't know yet whether they should have to do any of this work". Can you guess why? Because they should not have to. Why is it so important that you present criticism of RationalWiki here? Or anywhere else for that matter? And if it is, why not use a blog, over which you would have full control. Think about it, if people are SO bothered by your criticism, maybe they have a point. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 01:47, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Some other administrators seemed to support the idea of having criticism, and there is an etiquette policy forbidding deleting the work of others (which you seemed to support). But now it seems that deleting the criticism is really preferred to making the case that it is a valid criticism. Simply the fact that they have deleted it, gives you reason to believe that "they have a point" whereas my debating anything only seems to make you mad. Lumenos 12:16, 25 September 2009 (EDT) [Perhaps Felix was "mad" because the link to the criticism has NOT been deleted, so it was not really being censored, as I had thought at the time. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)]
 * You posted on my talk page that "a certain other WikiIndex user seems to be hunting down your edits". It seems I have made another mistake of trying to rewrite these edits in order to reach consensus with those deleting them. Was I supposed to request page protection or what? Lumenos 12:16, 25 September 2009 (EDT) [Perhaps we have reached consensus after all? Although it seems the process of doing so was more trouble than it was worth for many WikiIndex admins. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)]
 * You're either playing stupid, or else you really don't get it, so let me make you a drawing. It's not that you posted criticism, or that your criticism was deleted. It's that you kept posting it right back many times, against the obvious wishes of a peer (and an admin... I keep forgetting about Proxima Centauri), and then you made a huge scandal when your excessive edits led to the page being locked. We tried to mediate between you and them, but you obviously don't want to negotiate. You don't want a compromise. What are we supposed to do? Make it your way, just because? Sorry, no. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 02:13, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
 * [I wasn't asking Felix for page protection, I was asking if that was what he felt I should have done to prevent people "hunting down my edits". Felix interprets many of my questions like they are "rhetorical" and tries to second-guess my reason for asking. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)] After this learning experience, I have added this advice for newcomers who may be involved in disputes. That is an example of instructions that I would find clear, although there are many things I'm still confused about. Lumenos 03:55, 30 September 2009(EDT) This advice is still mostly valid, but apparently wiki articles do not have to be in a sympathetic viewpoint. The RationalWiki article is closer to what I would describe as the neutral point of view, now, but this seems to be as much because of decisions of myself and Hoover, as the administration, so I suppose it doesn't apply to any other article. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)]


 * You've asked elsewhere about my plans. Honestly, I'm one step away from locking the RationalWiki article for a looong time and stripping it down to the boilerplate. I'll even link to your criticism if you care to post it elsewhere, but you have to understand that your actions here are making other people uncomfortable and stop. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 02:13, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You are asking me to stop what exactly? I don't plan to add any link to any debate about a criticism, unless this is supported by a "real" policy (one you actually follow and enforce consistently). [Doh! Apparently, the link to the criticism was already there. I thought it wasn't. Sorry. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)] I don't think you have any idea how confusing your actions, statements, and "policies" are to me. I wish that the administration would stop blanking and locking articles, and that Dilley would not lock down the wiki, but any instructions we are given to prevent these things are sporadic and vague, in my perception, and the last lockdown was a complete surprise to everyone I read. I've slowed my posts down significantly, as requested. I haven't posted replies to a great many of your allegations, for example. I will try once again to ask you if there is anything else you are requesting. Am I getting warmer or colder? Aside from my reply to Phantom Hoover (which you moved to this location) have I been compliant with your (ambiguous) instructions? Could we have just a simple list of specific things to stop doing? And maybe I could have some idea of a limit as to how many characters per day, are too much to post? (A few clear and objective "policies", in other words.) Lumenos 03:55, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Funny how nobody else finds the WikiIndex (admittedly unwritten) policies confusing. Funny how nobody else ever felt a need to write them down. Are you sure the problem is with us? Is it so difficult to just use common sense? I see Phantom Hoover has dropped the issue regarding the RationalWiki article; if you're willing to do the same (formally, as I see you're not editing it anymore), we can all move on. Then, if you want to try and establish strict policies, feel free to rally other WikiIndex members, but I predict a lukewarm response, if any. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 13:08, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
 * If I am the main problem here, then why would you threaten to lock and blank the article, leaving only the edit Hoover was deleting?!?!?!? That's extremely confusing to me. We are letting Hoover have his way so he obviously has no reason to discuss the matter further. [We were actually letting me have my way, but I didn't realize it. I don't know how Hoover feels about having a link to the debated criticism. Nx deleted the link to the criticism, way back when. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)] I'm looking at a more long-term solution to many such conflicts. DavidCary said about the RationalWikiWiki article, "since the history page shows back-and-forth bickering a few months ago, I wouldn't say there is "nothing" controversial about it." and MarkDilley said "...I also highlight what David is saying." . They could not possibly be talking about me in that case, at least. What is moving articles to talk pages supposed to solve? That is like vandalism. You are never going to get consensus that way. What happens is some editors just give up and let more aggressive editors have their way. [Maybe we did happen to get "consensus" that way. But] I believe rule-by-law, is the most efficient way to [resolve disputes more painlessly]. If you and others, periodically post comments on the policy pages, just like everyone was doing before, eventually we may be able to establish some common ground on which to build a conflict resolution mechanism that is efficient, equitable, and broadly supported. It is just a matter of how long it will take. Lumenos 21:54, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm planning to put a number of proposals in subpages of WikiIndex talk:Policies and Guidelines, User:Lumenos, and maybe some other places. This means very long posts when I import them, so I am wondering if this is likely to result in some sort of lockdown by you or Dilley. I honestly do not know if this is what you call "trolling trolling trolling", or what he calls "edit spamming Recent Changes", or something I am not welcome to do here. Could you sorta promise to let us know immediately before you lockdown a page or something, so that we can change what we are doing, to avoid being "punished"? Lumenos 21:54, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

(Starting over from column one, for hopefully obvious reasons). Lumenos, all those conflicts you're referring to are over this one article. Which is just one among thousands here. Do you think it's so special to me? It's not. You made it so, by fighting other editors over it, and I'm fed up with that. What I really want is to delete it permanently, and if that wasn't so blatantly against the goals of WikiIndex, I would. As for consensus, you just mentioned two admins and an editor who seem to agree over what is right, and I'm with them. So who does that leave? You, Lumenos. You're the one who wants verbose policies. You're the one who forces us to wade through huge walls of text. And no, there isn't a character limit, you're just posting far more than anyone else. Can you spell "common sense" and "basic courtesy"? Can you see how badly you stand out from everyone else here? And why are you so worried about being "punished"? Does your life revolve around WikiIndex or something? Well, ours doesn't. We're just trying to make it better, one little piece at a time, because that's all we can afford. Do you want to help, or do you just want to obsess endlessly over one particular article, and play victim when that bothers a whole lot of people? I'll repeat my invitation over to IRC, in the hope that a real-time conversation will help us understand each other better. I don't know what else to say. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 03:50, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
 * The only person I know of, who has invited me to IRC, was "". I'm on IRC now. I wrote a big long reply before "" and "Felix (claudeb)" showed up there so I will only post this for now. I don't like to work "in secret". I've told them I intend to copy the chat and post it publicly and Felix said he didn't have a problem with that. Lumenos 02:08, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
 * As I see it, the administration here has [ MarkDilley and then Felix had] a method of making WikiIndex "better" by by blanking and locking articles ([one of] which [Felix] would prefer to delete?), whereas I'm suggesting we would make WikiIndex better by making broadly supported policies, and protecting articles according to those policies. (This may or may not require page protection.) Blanking articles as a "punishment" just seems counter-productive to the goal of making WikiIndex better; that's all. But you are absolutely correct that I am afraid of being banned. You might have noticed that unlike some of my opponents here, I don't threaten to "vandalize" the whole wiki, if I don't get my way. [I don't plan to come back if I am permanently banned.] That means I have only one shot at this. This is the most prominent wiki directory to wikis, as far as I know. That makes it very notable in my mind. Being able to edit this wiki is pretty important to me, at this time in my life. If you don't share that view I believe that is because you lack the vision to see a potential gold mine here. Lumenos 05:03, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Perhaps you have read something by Proxima, DavidCary, or Dilley, that I have not. I will believe what I read for myself, not your claims or interpretations of them. I don't really understand your point there anyway. Lumenos 05:03, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Thank you for tolerating me while it seems we have very different ideals and perceptions on these matters. I'm also grateful that you unprotected the blank RationalWiki article and that Dilley allowed you to do that. I kinda feel bad that my long posts offend you but it is difficult for me to imagine a "legitimate" reason for this. I don't see why certain editors here feel they have to read my posts. Afraid I'll say something I shouldn't be allowed to? What is more dominating, writing or patrolling edits? But I don't exactly question your right to "rule" here. I wish I could stay within limits that you would consider polite, not just tolerable. But I must admit that I really prefer to post a lot in spite of this, and you have made many accusations and claims that I would like to defend myself from. But my feeling toward you is gratitude that in spite of how you perceive me, you seem to be allowing me free speech. I appreciate and respect that very much. I'm not sure where this will lead us, but for what it is worth anyway. (By the way, I managed to cut out about half of what I wrote before we spoke at IRC. For others looking for this chatroom: at the IRC command line type "/server irc.freenode.net", then "/join #wikiindex".) Lumenos 05:03, 2 October 2009 (EDT)


 * You "only have one shot at this"? That seems overly dramatic. This is wiki, which means you have several shots at this. Even if a page gets protected "indefinitely", chances are that someone will come along and unlock at some point in the future. --MarvelZuvembie 17:23, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
 * I was talking about being banned, not page protection. I suppose bans are not usually permanent, so I guess this is unlikely. "Locking down" a wiki seems to be as extreme as permanently banning someone, but I guess Dilley doesn't think that way. From our chat Dilley said about the wiki lockdown, "it was something that i was thinking about at the time", so I guess nobody crossed a line we could not see there. Dilley said he appreciated my engagement, so it doesn't seem like I will wake up to a surprise ban tomorrow, based on some meeting of admins, that I wasn't aware of. I'm not loosing sleep here, I'm just saying I like this wiki and I want to stay. It is difficult for me to read a bunch of "accusations", "misinterpretations", etc, and not publicaly respond to most of it [because I am trying not to offend Felix (who says my posts are too long) or Dilley (who says my posts leave too many edits in Recent Changes). It seems like I am being asked to "self-censor", not that that is such a bad idea because the longer I have to think about something the more likely I am to avoid a mistake. Lumenos 16:00, 3 October 2009 (EDT)]. Lumenos 23:38, 2 October 2009 (EDT)


 * I'm glad to see that you found the link which you thought had been deleted. That may have been the source of others' confusion and frustration as well. So, if I understand correctly, you are content (not necessarily happy, but content) with the way the article is currently constructed? --MarvelZuvembie 16:08, 3 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah. The article is more or less what I would call a "neutral point of view". I'm not exactly "happy" with articles that are based on my ideals, rather than on policies that have broad support. But that will take some time. Lumenos 17:05, 3 October 2009 (EDT)