Editing WikiIndex talk:Policies and Guidelines

==Misc issues==
I've looked briefly at your suggested guidelings and it looks like something that we can discuss.  Frankly I've had trouble with those who want me fired before and I know them, I think they're just trolling me.  I'd rather stay an admin here but if things go wrong there's plenty for me to do elsewhere online or offline. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:11, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
:Do you know if the owners of WikiIndex support a consensus approach? Is the opposition pretty much out of luck as far as any disagreement with you, in other words? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
::I don't mean to pry, but when you say "fired" does that mean you are a paid employee? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT) 
::If you have already decided on what conditions you are willing to work here, I'd be interested in that. If the owner agrees or disagrees to your terms, then we will have some official policy. I don't see this as democratic but it would save time, if that is what it comes down to. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
:::Lumenos seems to have one agenda here, and that is fairly clear when one looks at [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Lumenos L's contribs].
:::I think the general policy here is to simply ''describe'' wikis, not to engage in petty arguments about their worldview. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 07:14, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
::::It doesn't look like Proxima has any serious intentions of leaving, so the subject of this thread is concluded, as far as I am concerned. I will quote your accusations on your talk page, and respond there. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 05:32, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

----

I applaud your attempt at making clear to everyone what our policies and guidelines are.
All too often one person thinks one action is the obvious common-sense right thing to do, and that one thing is, and always has been, the policy; while someone else thinks the same thing about some conflicting action.
Best to get everyone on the same page before some emergency erupts.

However, although I think "documented rules" are better than "unwritten rules",
I think a more important principle is "Keep it simple".
Also known as [[Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep]].

Is there is a better wiki somewhere for discussing the *potential* kinds of rules that a wiki *could* set up?
One that could calmly discuss the pros and cons of a particular policy, and its impact if all/most/some/none new wikis adopted it.
Perhaps [[MeatballWiki]] ?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 00:28, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

:Parts of it may be appropriate at MeatballWiki, but much of it is specific to this wiki and its editors and administration. I'm responding to some conflicts amongst the administration and editors here. I've gotten some support from Proxima both here and on my talk page, and no objections thus far. Again, I apologize for my embarrassing blunders on your talk page. I'm usually not ''that'' absent minded. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:40, 3 September 2009 (EDT) 

:Do you know if the owners of this wiki favor a consensus approach to resolving conflicts or developing policy? By that I mean involving and inviting the community of administrators, editors, and readers to collaborate to develop policy, etc? I think that fact would illuminate a description of the policy to a great degree. It would also save me a lot of time trying to derive consensus if this won't be allowed anyway. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:48, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

:As far as keeping it simple. Well, do you want me to just make up some rules? :-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:54, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

::I put a notice at the top saying, "'''For a few simple guidelines, see [[WikiIndex:Guidelines]]. For other guidelines, see [[:Category:Guidelines]].'''" There is not much there however. People get fairly heated with this stuff and I think there is a need to address issues of how to properly go about attempting to "force" one's will, when people don't agree. So I see policy solely as a means to resolving conflicts. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:54, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

::I don't mind if you want (me) to move some or all of it, but one problem is that it would give me some work to do because I may fix all the "interwiki" [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines|links I created, to it]]. (I've created links to specific sections in it.) I do that to divert people's aggression, into a constructive means of building consensus. So when a squabble breaks out, I send someone the link and I say, here Genius, you know how everyone should act make up some rules for us. :-) Which they usually don't do, but thus far I've been pleased with the progress of one wiki article. Someone who was protective of the wiki, agreed to a criticism section and they actually posted it themselves. They also have been allowing a link to a sort of "rival wiki". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:03, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

== How to do this sort of thing ==

You talk on the talk page, find areas that people agree on, and eventually make the "article".  The way this is being done is a disaster. A mess.  And Lumenos is linking to it as a "policy" page on user talk pages. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 01:02, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:Find me something closer to a policy page and I will link to that. It clearly states the lack of clear policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:And my user page clearly states that I have no special power here other than "reason". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:38, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, but maybe no one cares what ''you'' want the policy of WI to be, other than you. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 05:51, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::: Dear Huw Powell,
::: ''You talk on the talk page''? Is that so? Many editors here came from wiki that didn't have a talk page (such as, for example, the original wiki). If that is really such a good idea, then maybe a written guideline would help us, explaining why that works better than the alternatives.
::: ''maybe no one cares what ''you'' want''? Did you really intend to sound this rude?
::: ''what ''you'' want the policy of WI to be''? Are you reading the same page I'm reading? From reading this page, phrases like "... standards should be established ..." and "Please keep in mind that these "policies" may change" make it sound like the writer is not trying to push through any particular policy. Rather, it sounds like that writer is curious as to our actual policies, and is pointing out various areas where a clear written policy might be a good idea.
::: ''a disaster. A mess.'' This is a wiki. Therefore, if you see a disaster, please fix it. If a page is unfixable, slap that {{tl|delete}} template at the top. With respect, --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 02:35, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Hi David, "Many editors here came from wiki that didn't have a talk page" - but those of us who have editing wikis that have discussion (talk) pages for years have no way of knowing that.  It's like that "real name goes in the mainspace" thing - had I known that I would have simply used a common pseudonym I employ when I signed up.
::::"maybe no one cares what ''you'' want"  I'm looking for where I said that, was it the edit comment?  Yeah, sorry, that Lummykin guy gets on my tits with his often incomprehensible approach.
::::I guess part of the "disaster/mess" comment is a result of my being involved in working out policy pages on their respective talk pages on a wiki that is more active than this one.  We used a draft version in the project page, and headers in the talk page that made it clear what was being discussed in each section, and it worked well, and left a clear record behind of how the project page came to say what it says.  I guess you guys are just used to working in a way that seems very foreign to me.  Where might I find more information about this mode of working? Oh, and where is this "original wiki" I keep reading about? Best regards, [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 17:06, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

:::This page is mostly not my recommendations on policy. It is an outline of issues that have been sources of conflict here. There are many links and quotes to what I have found the administration saying or doing. You can post your "policy recommendations" in talk pages, if you wish. I would think you might have better luck posting them on this "policy article", but, then again, when you do that, it makes it look like more of a legitimate collaborative project, doesn't it? It is understandable that this would be a fear of yours, given my interest [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#How_sympathetic_or_critical.3F_.28Who_decides.3F.29|creating criticism pages for controversial wikis]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:43, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

By the way, how ''do'' you feel about the [[RationalWiki]] article (and those other four wikis) having pages for constructive criticism? The clock is ticking and you never know what Dilley may spring on us next. You might consider what happened the last time y'all just ignored his recommendation and continued in your squabbling. And you might consider [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#How_sympathetic_or_critical.3F_.28Who_decides.3F.29|one of his other recommendations (which I support, if that matters)]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:57, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex%3APolicies_and_Guidelines&diff=70905&oldid=70843 This is how I choose to react to Dilley's decision to move those articles to talk pages]. He has spoken in that location before; maybe he will respond there. I think he has more incentive to consider my questions, in that location, rather than when you post un-constructive complaints on talk pages. So that is ''my way'' of doing this sort of thing. Good luck in yours. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:43, 9 September 2009 (EDT)