View source for WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines

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[[MarkDilley]] seems to be the only active [[bureaucrat]] around here. He has spoken recently in the [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy|block policy proposal]], claiming to support "[[SoftSecurity]]". One might put this in the context of his [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#Administrative_powers|recent decision to move five wiki articles to talk pages]]. He seems to favor protecting pages rather than blocking users. Now I see that this is much more effective, because some editors will simply get more IP addresses and create more user names when they are blocked, for example, through the [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_Onion_Router Tor network]. [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page= But one such dissenter claims (by creating this message as a user name) "You'll have to lock talk pages too"]. Perhaps a threat to [http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:uoKLLo-HZ6UJ:rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php%3Ftitle%3DWandalism+rationalwiki.com/wiki/Wandalism+wandalism&hl=en&client=mozilla&gl=us&strip=1 wandalize] talk pages, if their demands are not met. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:07, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

'''For a few simple guidelines, see [[Editing etiquette]] or [[WikiIndex:Guidelines]]. For other guidelines, see [[:Category:Guidelines]].'''

The rest of the "policies" don't exist (or they are unwritten) aside from "[[Spam_Control_Policy|spam]]". This seemed to be a source of confusion and conflict so '''I made most of this article (with out asking anybody else)''' to sort through a number of these specific issues. Please add your suggestions or questions here or on the [[WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines|talk page]]. (You can create user name links easily with <nowiki>"~~~"</nowiki> or <nowiki>"~~~~"</nowiki>.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:09, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

The rest of this page should eventually link to policies and guidelines, but for now, it is being used to describe or develop, suggestions for etiquette, policies or guidelines. This is mainly a practical means to attempt to resolve disputes by mutual agreement in an "ethical standard". [[User_talk:Huw_Powell|Huw Powel]] doesn't like the idea. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:35, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

== Notes to editors of this page ==

===Your comments may be edited by others=== 

'''ANNOUNCEMENT: <del>This is a proposal to adopt '''neutrality''' for this page.</del> Comments may be deleted or relocated (to a talk page). <del>Secondly, it is proposed that we do not post about any ''specific'' conflict that has been going on, but instead ''speak only in terms of generalizations''. And that we move any of those comments that are already here, to a talk page (eventually), or delete them.'''</del> Any <del>such</del> comments that are relevant to policy [may eventually] be ''paraphrased into generalizations'', <del>which will remain where the comment was,</del> while the comment is relocated to a talk page or deleted. ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:05, 5 September 2009 (EDT))[More strikeout and bracketed text added. I'm posting about specific conflicts now because Dilley doesn't seem to mind as Proxima did. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:09, 12 September 2009 (EDT)]

For example, someone posts this comment here, "I've been harassed by people from AboWiki. We should not allow this." This would be removed and a request would be placed on the commenter's talk page to propose that a specifically defined offense, be handled in a specific manner. So the proper way to propose a policy in this case would say: "I propose we do not allow editors to continue posting unanswered replies to a user's talk page. That we enforce this policy by first warning, then blocking the editor.<your signature>" ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:05, 5 September 2009 (EDT)) 

Both this page and its talk page are '''for policy discussion''' only. If you have a specific grievance, you would like to resolve, follow the instructions on this guide, or see if [[:Category:Guidelines]] has more clues, on what you can do to have your issue resolved. ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:05, 5 September 2009 (EDT))

: '''''I disagree strongly with Neutral Point of View for this wiki.  I understand that it is for this page only - and I am not sure that is still a good thing. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]''''' 
::The question is, what would be a better thing? I've listed some other options [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#How_sympathetic_or_critical.3F_.28Who_decides.3F.29|here]]. I don't see how we would have a sympathetic POV for this page, unless maybe it is "sympathetic" to "WikiIndex" but I'm not sure what that would mean. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
::What potential problems do you see with this "NPOV" here? (It is not Wikipedia's NPOV, BTW) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
:: '''Those are fair comments - I just don't know what NPOV would do for us here.  My experience with wiki, is that if I say something that is outrageous and inflammatory - someone comes in and fixes it - keeps the meaning but ''neutralizes'' it. So I do agree with not creating an atmosphere of forest fire mentality or edit waring or flaming. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''

::We are allowing "commenting" on this page, but I don't want to open up debates about specific conflicts. This is my reason for the "NPOV". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
::: '''I think that commenting on any page is ''allowed'' - that is how wiki has worked for many places before Wikipedia.  ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''

(Here is [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Npov Wikipedia's policy of a neutral point of view] if this may give us any ideas.) -- [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]

::Another idea would be to use the talk page for "comments" but the whole thing is pretty much my "POV", so I don't want to exclude others. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
::: '''''Glad that you are interested in inclusion. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''''
:::I feel strongly that we should be signing our proposals and claims here and I thank you for doing so. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
:::: '''Ditto ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''

===This page will likely be copied to [[Lumeniki]]===

If no one objects (or perhaps even if they do) I plan to either duplicate or move this page to [[Lumeniki]] eventually. This may cause concern for some editors. (Anything for which there is not a legal prohibition, may be copied to Lumeniki, anyway.) Lumeniki could become somewhat like [[Talk:Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Dramatica#Free_speech|Encyclopediadramatica]], [[Wikitruth]], [[WikiLeaks]] or "worse" in any sense. I understand this may complicate matters, but I will need to see some evidence that this would be a bad idea, in order to change this plan. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

I do not necessarily plan to remove comments from the page before copying it to Lumeniki. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:13, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

== Temporary purpose of this article ==

Eventually this article should describe "the polices" of WikiIndex, but there is more than one way "the policies" may be defined or created.

Being that the majority of WikiIndex articles are [[OpenEdit]], and these sorts of wikis generally claim to favor consensus, I ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) have taken the initiative to try to build consensus and measure consensus. In so doing I realize that this will have to be broken into the following projects:
*Describe the policy of active administration:
**The claimed or idealistic policies of active administrators.
**A description of how the administration actually behaves (from the view of editors or critics who intend to alert people of the "actual" policies or the way the wiki is actually run).
*Describe consensus among editors (this is particularly important in an [[OpenEdit]] wiki, in light of "editors powers" listed in the section "Enforcement against editors". Editors do seem to have a say in some policies, even when certain sysops do not agree.):
**Describe the claimed or idealistic policies of the wiki editors by the following criteria:
*** "Measured" by petitions (if they participate in this process).
*** "Measured" by requests or ideals expressed a dialogs such as talk pages (if the editors are not directly participating in petitions).
**A description of how the editors actually behave (based on edit histories of active editors) and how this may influence the content or "policy" of WikiIndex.

== Enforcement policies ==

All policies should (eventually) include what type of "enforcement" is appropriate for the "violation". Block policy is being discussed [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy|here]]. I ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) suggest we clearly separate the [[Editing etiquette|etiquette policy]] from the [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy|enforcement policy]], because "enforcing politeness" isn't always polite nor is is always practical at archiving its ends.

===Enforcement against editors===
All policies should denote what type of enforcement is appropriate for the policy. Here are some suggested "categories of enforcement" against editor's violations of policy:
====Editor's powers====
*'''Etiquette:''' Guide to help polite people to be polite. Does not imply any enforcement. (You may edit this page.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT) 
:But the real etiquette page is [[WikiIndex:Editing_etiquette|here]]. Dilley has [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex%3AEditing_etiquette&diff=70385&oldid=70231 edited the etiquette guideline now]. You could perhaps edit that one, but it is more official now, I'd say. For example, Dilley deleted my edit of it. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:36, 12 September 2009 (EDT) 
* '''Tag:''' Placing "warning tags" on info that is dubious, impolite, etc. What categories of info warrants this? You could alternatively change the information (without deleting or reverting). ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:* Warning tags are too strong - I like the idea of tags and think they should point to constructive information. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]
::* I agree. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
::* Err um ([[User_talk:This_is_not_the_solution#Thanks_to_everyone_for_the_cooling_off_-_here_is_my_idea_on_how_to_move_through_this.|then Dilley moved a few wikis to their talk pages without so much as a warning tag on them]]). (See "Protect page", then, "Relocating an article about a wiki, to the talk page and locking the article".) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
*'''Ridicule:''' IMO a fairly standard practice of the [[RationalWiki]] mafia (myself included). Try to use for the betterment of WikiIndex and the world, if possible. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:41, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
* '''Labeling opponents:''' Some terms [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] suggests you might try:
:* Troll, for example [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Concern_troll#Concern_troll concern troll] (see [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=User:Nx&oldid=71273]). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:* [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cyberstalker Cyberstalker] (see [[User_talk:Lumenos#More_about_Rpeh|A web search on "Rpeh"]]) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:* [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikilawyering Wikilawyer] (see [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:(Note, if I were labeling Lumenos, I'd probably go with more traditional labels such as: paranoid, delusional, arrogant fumbling buffoon, etc. :-) I luvz the wikis cause I can go back and fix all me retardations, but let me assure you, they are not exactly intentional. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:21, 12 September 2009 (EDT) )
:But in all seriousness I think it much more precise and constructive, to label specific statements using tags or quotes, rather than labeling editors. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:06, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
*'''Pointy edits:''' Making edits that are designed to be temporary, to prove a point. This could not possibly be a form of trolling because [[User_talk:Lumenos#Nx_do_you_not_want_people_to_know_what_you_are_doing_here.3F|Nx did it (-; (see 4th post down)]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:56, 12 September 2009 (EDT) 
*'''Edit sparring:''' Some wikis consider it "edit warring" and baaaad to undo edits. [Since so few are interested in policy development] Lumenos suggest Wikipedias "three revert rule", as a matter of etiquette. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:16, 12 September 2009 (EDT)[Update [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:50, 12 September 2009 (EDT)]
:*'''Edit conflicts:''' Posting a rough draft fast, then making corrections to an article someone else is likely to be trying to edit, which cause them edit conflicts. (May or may not be "intentional".) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:00, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
* '''Relocate:''' 
:* See "Protect page", then, "Relocating an article about a wiki, to the talk page and locking the article".
:*'''Relocating talk page comments:''' I propose to relocate comments, for example, [[User_talk:MarkDilley#The_lunatics_have_taken_over_the_asylum.|"attention mongering" on Dilley's talk page]]. That means, for example, making no meaningful request and providing no .useful information. Relocate these to one of the editors' talk pages. This seems to be a "problem" with editor who have been blocked from editing here before. Maybe it is fun for us, but that really isn't the place for I to be tickling me hobgoblin. That is, unless the administration would prefer we do these things on Dilley's page. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:30, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
* '''Eventual deletion:''' What categories of info should be deleted eventually, if the warning tags are ignored?
* '''Request or alert:''' Tell the violator of the policy about your perception and reasoning. This could be done on their talk page or on the talk page of articles.
* '''Speedy deletion'''
* '''Request administrative action:''' Request one of the following administrative actions listed under "Administrative powers".

====Administrative powers====
*'''Protect page:''' 
:*'''Relocating an article about a wiki, to the talk page, and locking the article:''' 
::* I propose that the administration '''not''' protect articles, simply because there is "edit warring" over them, unless someone requests protection. If an administrator personally feels the article is biased, etc, that would be another "good" reason to protect an article, in my view. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:32, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
::*([[User_talk:This_is_not_the_solution#Thanks_to_everyone_for_the_cooling_off_-_here_is_my_idea_on_how_to_move_through_this.|Dilley moved a few wikis to their talk pages without so much as a warning tag on them]]).  Cap'n, perhaps it is not my place to know, but is there any way of predicting which way this ship is going, before we get there? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:13, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
:::*He did [[User_talk:This_is_not_the_solution#Thanks_to_everyone_for_the_cooling_off_-_here_is_my_idea_on_how_to_move_through_this.|warn/suggest this to editors]] but I didn't come across any instructions for how editors may have avoided this or when/why it was going to happen. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:10, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
:::*Some questions: 
::::What is the purpose of doing this? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:06, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
::::How can editors avoid this happening, in the future? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:06, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What do editors have to do, in order to have the article pages unprotected? We are told, "[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ARationalWiki&diff=70872&oldid=70839 Move to article page when agreed upon by 3 Sysops and 3 people involved in the conflict]". When ''what'' is agreed upon? The only people I've come across, who seem to possibly want the article protected is [[MarkDilley]] and maybe [[DavidCary]]. So everyone I thought was involved in the conflict presently, (I think that is just me and whoever is still left of the RationalWiki mafia ;-) don't want the article protected. We already agree on that. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:24, 13 September 2009 (EDT) 
:::::Are we supposed to be agreeing on a version of the article? If that is the case, it would seem you would have to protect the article after this version is moved out. This seems to contradict the spirit of [[OpenEdit]] and is not ideal. If we are not going to protect the version that is moved out, then I suppose there would need to be some guideline as how the article may be altered, after it is moved out. Like that certain things should not be added or deleted, from the article. Otherwise I don't see this as any different than agreeing to unprotect the page (and reopening "conflict"). (Although I think there is less "conflict" now that Proxima and Nx are less interested in WikiIndex.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:24, 13 September 2009 (EDT) 

* '''Oversite:''' I believe this means removing something from edit histories, logs, etc. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:10, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
* '''Block editor:''' See [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy]].

===Enforcement against administrators===

("Administrators" are [http://wikiindex.org/Special:Listusers?username=&limit=50&group=sysop sysops] or [http://wikiindex.org/Special:Listusers?username=&limit=50&group=bureaucrat bureaucrats])

I ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) suggest editors are welcome to enforce policy that may be in conflict with administrators actions. See "Editors power's" above for things you can do without administrative assistance. 

The rest of this section is about how you may enforce policy against administrators, if you convince other administrators that they have violated policy.

====Communicating during blocks====

Before attempting to enforce policy against an administrator, you may want to get other administrator's or editors email addresses, or find other websites where they can be contacted, so that you will be able to communicate with them, if you get blocked.

====Suggested requests====

What you may request of other administrators if you have evidence that an administrator is in violation of policy:

* '''Undoing the block or protection'''
* '''Dispute resolution''' (Ask another sysop)
* '''Demotion of the administrator''' (temporarily or permanently)

====Bring this evidence====

Don't waste their time, bring your evidence and be concise. For example, if you believe a sysop has blocked a user or protected a page without good reason. Do the following: 
*Copy their stated reason for the blocks, protection, or deletion. (This should be in the [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page= block log], [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=protect&user=&page= protection log], or [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page= deletion log]. If they did not leave a reason, state that they left no reason.)
*Copy the date of the block, so the block can be found easily in the log.
*Check the "user contributions" and copy a link to the diff showing the "offenses" which should be the administrator's stated reason for the block. 
**Note, this information may not be available if an administrator decides the edit is not suitable to remain in the page history. (This is called an "oversite", I think.) In this case you may request that both parties privately email you their version of the event, or anything they claim to have copied, and you may privately email these to another administrator for review.
*State your request (see "Suggested requests", above)
*Explain which policy you believe they have violated.

=== Excluding wikis from WikiIndex ===

''The following is a [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy#Biographical_info|quote of sysop DavidCary]]:'' "[[Category talk:Wiki Edit Mode | As I have said before]], in my opinion, every publicly-available wiki should be listed on this WikiIndex, no matter how evil. The only exception is when that wiki's owner or that wiki's community chooses to [[WikiIndex:OptOut]]. (Although I don't understand why one would put a wiki on the public web, but not want anyone to know about it, I will respect such wishes)." [[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 23:35, 2 September 2009 (EDT) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

''The following is a [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy#Biographical_info|quote of sysop DavidCary]]:'' "[[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki#some_wiki_seem_to_be_blocked | Others]] seem to agree with my "completist" preferences." [[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 23:35, 2 September 2009 (EDT) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

''The following is a [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy#Biographical_info|quote of sysop DavidCary]]:'' "You may be able to convince me that we shouldn't display offensive wiki logos, and perhaps you may convince me that we shouldn't make an easily-clickable active link to an illegal site." [[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 23:35, 2 September 2009 (EDT) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

''The following is a [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy#Biographical_info|quote of sysop DavidCary]]:'' "But to completely censor every mention of a wiki? How does "pretend that evil wiki don't exist" help our users?" [[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 23:35, 2 September 2009 (EDT) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
:If it is a question of something our readers need to know, of course. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
:It wouldn't help our users, necessarily, it may help whomever the evil wiki is being evil ''to'', by giving the wiki an incentive to change their evil ways. But you know, there is evil and then there is evil... oh yeah, then there is evil. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

==How sympathetic or critical? (Who decides?)==

We have the following options:
*Allow only the sympathetic view in articles. (Criticism can be done on the talk pages anyway, unless we limit this also.)
*Attempt a [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Npov Neutral Point of View] for articles.
*Attempt a [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Npov Neutral Point of View] for articles but allow a section for "critical" viewpoints.
*Have separate articles for sympathetic and critical viewpoints. Anyone would be able to create the critical article for any wiki, if they have a grievance or negative review (with the following limitations).

But, critical or not, '''all articles shall be restrained''' by the policies on:
*Notability
*Verifiability
*Constructiveness (so any criticism must be written in a way that it is suggesting what they could do better) (per  [[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki#Conservapedia.2C_RationalWiki_etc|bureaucrat MarkDilly's suggestion]])
*(See [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Block Wikipedia's block policy] per [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy#draft_blocking_policy_proposal|sysop DavidCary's proposal]].)

Are the articles on wikis to be sympathetic, critical, both, or "neutral"? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Wikipedia supposedly uses the "neutral" approach].
::This offers much opportunity for censorship and edit waring. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:[http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Main_Page Wikinfo] deals with edit wars by making the [http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Wikinfo:Sympathetic_point_of_view main article sympathetic], and posting a link at the top of that article, to an article devoted solely to criticism. 
::This sort of policy sounds like it might work here, if y'all agree. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:::It's cumbersome at [[Wikinfo]] but it's better than not allowing criticism at all.[[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:34, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
:::(Proxima is a sysop here.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I propose that critical articles may contain rebuttals to criticisms. ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:33, 31 August 2009 (EDT))
:::'''MarkDilly seems to be the most (or only) active bureaucrat, [[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki#Conservapedia.2C_RationalWiki_etc|in one example he suggested a criticism page]] that was named like "Constructive Criticism of..." then he wrote the wiki's name, but I don't want to post that here because I'm trying to speak in the general sense although I should add that he did mention the wiki so this is not necessarily a policy he is suggesting for all wikis.''' [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:22, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
::::I second this uuh suggestion. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:05, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the restraint and professionalism that everyone is displaying here. I'd just like everyone to know that I'm not gonna post some witty statement like "BWAM", because that is not the purpose of this policy page. :-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Uhh Lumenos he didn't say that the main article would link to the critical one. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Doh! You shut up that is what he meant! [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

I think that criticism should not be allowed at all, because it just provokes destructive debates; imagine if Proxima's complaints about her privacy had been left on a page dedicated to it &mdash; there would have been a bloodbath. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 12:21, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
:I think we should use various policies to mitigate both the criticism and the self-indulgence. For example, <del>[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Npov Wikipedias Neutral Point of View]</del> for main articles, if there are not special critical articles. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT) Update: Dilley opposes "Neutral Point of View" and I am not sure what it means to him but I think   our conversation [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#Your_comments_may_be_edited_by_others|here]] might be relevant to this. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:40, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:Otherwise, let the main article be "sympathetic" and have separate critical articles (or sections), but both of these would be limited by notability and verifiability policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

DavidCary (sysop) suggestion for one article on (24 November 2008) is [[Talk:RationalWiki#Wikiindex|here]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:02, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Should wiki articles be: 
*[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=RationalWiki&oldid=70631 neat and pretty]? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:41, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
*[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWiki&oldid=71270 A fregan lolercoaster]? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:41, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
*[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=RationalWiki&oldid=70457 A compromise]? I vote something like this. (Except that the similar wikis may represent bias and the link to the critical debate page should be in the criticism section. [And the criticism should be developed and organized (maybe as a real [http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Debate_map debate map])].) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:44, 10 September 2009 (EDT) [Update [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:15, 10 September 2009 (EDT)]

==Biographical info==

: ''"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." --  Eleanor Roosevelt''

Before biographical information should be posted about anyone (or their pseudonym), '''both''' of the following criteria should be met:
#The person meets [[WikiIndex:Notability|WikiIndex's notability requirement]].
#The information was obtained "legitimately": This may be defined by their level of consent, or at least it would probably have to be within legal requirements or WikiIndex may be subject to a lawsuit. 

Who is "[[WikiIndex:Notability|notable]]" enough to warrant biographical info be posted about them? 
----

'''Biographical information should not be included if it does not meet the following standard:'''

For now [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] suggests the standard be defined by "local" laws and [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Wikipedia's policy on biographical info] until a standard more specific to WikiIndex can be established.

Since this is WikiIndex, I'd stick to people who are important in the world of Wikis, such as creators of established engines and people like Jimmy Wales. For guidelines on ''how''  to write the biographies, Wikipedia does look like a good model to follow. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 12:07, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

I'd really like to eventually allow editors to post some reviews of the administration of wikis, but that gets into the shady area of libel and it seems like we may just be better off with excluding all of it, if people are just gonna war about it all the time. It is fairly notable information, but I suppose the talk pages are serving that purpose alright for now. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:07, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
:Libel's not really your problem; the problem is the quality being compromised by people with unjustified vendettas putting silly claims there. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 17:12, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
::True, libel is not presently the problem. I'm glad you clarified that if that may be confusing to anyone. I'm speaking in terms of the future and establishing general principles. Perhaps in doing it this way I making it more complex than people would care to deal with right now. I'm thinking maybe I will just write a policy "proposal", which will be here, and we can see if anyone wants to express agreement or disagreement or rewrite any part of it, using the consensus and collaborative approach that we are all familiar with, being wiki editors. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:34, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

The following is up for review: please add your suggestions, comments, and questions:

===Youth===

Separate standards should be established based on age (note these would be in addition to local legal standards that already exist, someone might provide some links to those):

*Privacy of "children" (under 14 years of age) 
*Privacy of "adolescents" (14 to 18 years of age)
*Privacy of "adults" (18 or older)

There is of course, a little difficulty, at least in distinguishing adolescents from adults and distinguishing children from adolescents when we are dealing with only text.

===Legitimate acquisition of biographical info about "adults"===

How the information was obtained:
*When the "victim" puts information about themselves, in a place on the Internet, that they know is visible to anyone who finds it (without any "hacking"):
*Communications in chatrooms. (Note this was added after Phantom Hovers comment dated 12:21, 30 August 2009. Please keep in mind that these "policies" may change. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:49, 31 August 2009 (EDT) ;-)
I would suggest that '''all''' of the below are illegitimate methods of obtaining information; the object of the outing did not intend for any of these to be published on the internet. Then again, I come from [[RationalWiki]], where it is considered an invasion of privacy to Google someone's name to find out information, though this is something of a point of contention. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 12:21, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds good for we little people but I think we should have a different policy for particularly notable people such as those involved in high levels of government, major (multinational) corporations, or less centralized groups who are involved in mass killings, torture, [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions stuff like that]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:53, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
::So if editors/admins of WikiIndex find that a wiki does not (or cannot) promptly remove such information (when requested) should this be a basis for removal of the wiki from WikiIndex? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:49, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

*One on one online conversations (Note this was added after Phantom Hovers comment dated 12:21, 30 August 2009.)
*Someone reveals a secret about someone they know from real life:
**When the person is basically open about their "secret" but doesn't want it completely public or connected with certain online identities.
**Info gained from eavesdropping when a reasonable expectation of privacy would be expected.
*Photos taken of someone, their residence, automobile (license #), etc.
*Photos from outside, into someone's home or backyard.
*Hacking or wiretapping.
*(Any other ideas for the geek paparazzi?)

===Where should this information be forbidden?===

*Should this information be deleted from articles on WikiIndex? 
**Sympathetic main article?
**Critical articles? (See section "How sympathetic or critical?")
*How about talk pages or edit histories: 
**When it is for the apparent administrative purpose of "analyzing" the claims to determine enforcement or advice? (This may be more appropriately done through private correspondence.)
**When the apparent purpose of posting the "private" info is to "punish" or "protest" by means of exposing this "private" info?
*Will there be a minimum privacy standard that wikis will have to abide by, to receive a listing in WikiIndex?
**What standard shall we set for main articles?
**What standard shall we set for talk pages?

===Implementation or enforcement===

After we reach some consensus standard, '''as to what is polite or legitimate''', the second question is, what is the polite or legitimate way to implement or enforce these guidelines? Will censoring actually work or will it result in the [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Streisand_effect Streisand effect]? If you have even one determined "protester", privacy is quite difficult to protect once the "info genie" is out of the bottle. Especially when there are edit histories, and talk pages where most any info is generally allowed, forums where only administrators can remove info from posts, etc. No one is reading only this one site. The block, delete, and oversite policies must take into account the logistic/practical question of whether these measures will have the intended result. This has to be balanced according to <del>geek mob rule</del> [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#Community_consensus|community consensus]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]

==Notability==

A notability guide concerning linking ("spamming"), in other wikis articles:

(See [[Talk:RationalWiki#Similar_wikis|Including Liberapedia in the RationalWiki article]].)

How large or active does a wiki need to be to be included in another wikis article? What is the minimum number of regular editors, if this is important?

Should the quality of the wikis content also be considered? If so, who is to make this evaluation? 

How close to the subject matter do they have to be, to have a link on that wikis page? Most importantly, who decides this?

This wiki obviously can't use [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Note Wikipedia's notability policy] or it will end up with a tiny list like [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_wikis this].

==Verifiability==

For any controversial content I ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) propose that we adopt something similar to [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:VER Wikipedia's inclusion policy on verifiability] with some differences. 
:Difference #1: We have a different notability requirement.
:Difference #2: Sources can be simply links so long as the info is easy to find on the link. 
::If it is not easy to find, do something to make it easier to find the info.
:::Note to readers: You can use "CTRL + F" on your keyboard to find words or phrases on a web page.

([https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:VER Wikipedia's verifiability policy])

Should WikiIndex make claims, quote sources, or only make claims as to what sources claim?
:I prefer to quote sources, but this is not customary here. So sometimes I write like "Bob claims that...", but this comes across as suspicious and can be very repetitive when everything is a claim I heard somewhere. Wikipedia's policy is probably the best compromise I can think of at the moment. References can be simple web links in the body of articles since this wiki doesn't really look like it is made for paper. Note that since WikiIndex inclusion policy is broader than Wikipedia, many sources will be self-published sources (Wikipedia ordinary does not allow these) who are only considered "reliable" for info such as describing their own intentions for their wiki's, etc. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:50, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Should WikiIndex allow editors to be "eyewitnesses" or speak in the first person?
:I think so. I think we should allow putting the "signatures" into the articles (as Lumenos does here using this "<nowiki>~~~</nowiki>" wiki markup code) if there is no link or reference that can be easily provided or when there is a reference but it is too long for most to read to find the relevant information. Newbies may not understand what these names are but I value accuracy and I think it is not too difficult to understand or it least, it shouldn't be too distracting if they want to ignore it. What do you think? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:50, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
::This may also help in evaluating an editors reputation, to establish whether they deserve more or less power. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:50, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

===Examples===

''I recalled that RationalWiki's crash was "most likely due to a MySQL connection error". ~~ Lumenos''
:''Trent said it was a hardware error, but he didn't provide details. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 15:15, 9 September 2009 (EDT)'' (quote by Lumenos)
::I think that WikiIndex would be more accurate if people signed these sorts of "comments" they put into articles, or they quote a source. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 01:25, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I think it would be best if you stopped [quoting me]. I only found this one by accident. On the signing idea, no. As for the reference,. here you go: [http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=RationalWiki:Saloon_bar&diff=prev&oldid=429342] - he said he doesn't know yet what the exact cause was. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 02:51, 10 September 2009 (EDT) [I corrected this post for ya Nx [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:30, 10 September 2009 (EDT)]
::::I will consider your request. I personally don't mind people quoting me elsewhere without informing me, but I did post a link here in [[Talk:RationalWiki#Could_it_be_.7C337_h.40x0r5.3F|the original location]] (before reading your request here). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:56, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I do mind because I lose track of the discussion. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:01, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::It's only a discussion if you know about it. ;-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:37, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Lumenos, you are quoting and abusing my posts to justify your silly ideas. There is no reason why quotes like this should be put in the article. You could just write that it was a hardware error and link to the post by Trent. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:40, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Abusing your posts am I? And that means, not using them as you had intended? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:44, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Why should WikiIndex stand behind a statement made by Trent. Why don't we just post a quote from Trent? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:54, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

==Community consensus== 
To resolve or set boundaries on conflict, I ([[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]) suggest we work with the community here to establish policies that attempt to reflect how they want this content filtered and organized. And that any policies be updatable (deletable) according to how the community changes. By definition, we can only reflect the will of editors (not those who only read without leaving feedback of some sort) but we may put up some messages welcoming suggestions or questions as to the policy, and leave these pages [[OpenEdit]] as long as possible.

==Common sense proposal==
This is a small and relatively inactive wiki. It hardly needs a very large policies and guidelines section - which admins and users are unlikely to read anyway. What it needs are active, fair-minded admins who use common sense.

I therefore propose that this whole page be replaced with the words:  '''"The wiki admins will monitor the wiki and use their common sense to resolve issues.  Where there is a dispute it will be resolved between the active admins on the site.''' (Or alternatively a vote amongst the active users.) --[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 14:16, 12 September 2009 (EDT) 

:I beg to differ. At 4668 content pages and dozens of edits a day, WikiIndex is hardly small or inactive. Remember, Wikipedia is an outlier, completely off the scales when compared to anything else. That said, I agree we should rely on common sense more than rules. But rules are useful as general guidelines. Just to get everyone on the same page, you know (pun intended). ~~ Not Lumenos
: That was me, sorry. Forgot to sign. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 02:16, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

:How about if we just replace your section here with those words? I wouldn't do that, but you notice the irony? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:53, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:If you really think no one is going to read this page, why would you bother suggesting it be deleted? I think you are concerned about it giving me power. I'm paranoid however and have been wrong in the past. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:53, 12 September 2009 (EDT) 
:I don't think we should delete the edit by Proxima and especially not the one's by Dilley. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:25, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
:I don't think we should delete things that point to other statements or actions made by the administration. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:25, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
:Phantom Hoover's [ [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#Examples|and Nx's]] ] edits are at least as noteworthy as any of mine. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:33, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:If you disagree with any of my policy proposals, I believe you have just as much a right (per Dilley's suggestions under "Notes to editors") to delete my proposals. You could also move them to the talk page. I would rather you add your own and debate them but this page is already long and someone is going to have to start moving things elsewhere anyway. It would be nice if someone else would do this for a change so y'all can go whine at them instead of me. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:53, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
:What you are suggesting is basically what they have been doing, before I arrived. DavidCary was working on a block policy proposal, but that was only on a talk page ;-). There have been conflicts that have escalated to uncomfortable proportions. At least two admins did not know what to expect of the bureaucrat, until push came to shove. Same thing happened again [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#Administrative_powers|with Dilley's move of articles to talk pages]]. There was no explanation of how we could have prevented that or why exactly that happened. Is that what you are asking for? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:15, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

[[Category: WikiIndex]]
[[Category: Guidelines]]