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WikiIndex talk:Prohibited content: Difference between revisions
→Controversial sites: there is a fork in the road
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:''(Undid revision 186925 by Abd (talk) academic sites are a non-issue because they are usually databases behind a paywall rather than wikis) | :''(Undid revision 186925 by Abd (talk) academic sites are a non-issue because they are usually databases behind a paywall rather than wikis) | ||
Actually, I had in mind Wikiversity. Wikiversity is not, as a site, going to "advocate legalization" of anything, but it may well ''cover'' such. And, indeed, people will complain. There are differences across cultures, such that what one culture accepts, another thinks it monstrously offensive. There is popular opinion on some issues, and then there is academic study and opinion. On one of | Actually, I had in mind Wikiversity. Wikiversity is not, as a site, going to "advocate legalization" of anything, but it may well ''cover'' such. And, indeed, people will complain. There are differences across cultures, such that what one culture accepts, another thinks it monstrously offensive. There is popular opinion on some issues, and then there is academic study and opinion. On one of Leucosticte's favorite topics, there are web sites that collect academic papers that support unpopular views. There is a vast gulf between academic opinion and popular opinion. Are we going to censor that? The issue of whether or not a site is *advocating* or merely documenting or discussing, can be knotty to disentangle, and, again, experience is that if these discussions are necessary for operating the wiki, disruption is likely. | ||
In the WMF family of wikis, Wikipedia has a strict child protection policy: | In the WMF family of wikis, Wikipedia has a strict child protection policy: | ||
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:It sounds like "wiki management" is active and on your side, although they may have taken awhile to arrive to the scene. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 04:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | :It sounds like "wiki management" is active and on your side, although they may have taken awhile to arrive to the scene. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 04:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
::Whenever decisions or status does not match Nathan's position, something is wrong with wiki administration. It's a given. I took one major stand on Wikiversity, in one of the rare deletion discussions, where I was overruled. The discussion was lengthy and a ton of outsider comment arrived. As part of that sequence, I created alternate content that still stands, that was actually superior to the deleted page. The deciding administrator was faced with policy in one direction and apparent consensus in the other. He figured out a way to rationalize the consensus as being consistent with policy. That was one administrator's assessment of consensus. It did not change policy. Faced with the same situation, I would again request undeletion (and, note: the page was promptly undeleted for discussion.) Now that I know exactly what are the issues on the other side, I'd handle it differently. | |||
::Nathan, you trolled a marginal probationary custodian into taking strong action against you. He was warned and he ignored it. What was of weight was undone, what was not important was left. You had violated WMF policy, as I recall, on "outing." You named an editor who was apparently banned for violating child protection policy. You were warned (and you did not continue). On the suicide pages, you did nothing block-worthy, but you were blocked. That probationary custodian ended up wheel-warring with the only active permanent custodian. Bad Idea. The outcome was predictable. Who arranged that outcome, Nathan? I'm not an administrator on any WMF wiki, though I've been one on Wikiversity. Three times, actually. | |||
::They are on my side because I'm on theirs. I was blocked for two years on Wikiversity. Why? I knew what could be done, and I didn't do it, I chose not to pursue appeal and waited until the wiki moved on. And it did. And it was trivial to get unblocked, I didn't have to ask for it, I was asked instead. | |||
::There was a user who was one of the founders of Wikiversity. He's blocked. Why? It's pretty simple, he could not get over the sheer ''injustice'' of it, so when he was unblocked, he used the opportunity to constantly complain at great length, with obsessed comments that were very difficult to read. I tried to help him, he attacked me as well. I think he will eventually be unblocked, periodically I revisit the issue with him. Wikiversity is, for academics, a dream wiki (and he's an academic). | |||
::Wikiversity is not perfect. There are "difficult topics." And there are users who make it a point to pursue them. They attract flies. Real universities decide where to draw lines. As you know, a real university supported its professor on one of the hot-button issues, because the issue of academic freedom was clear. Wikiversity will do the same. You were not prohibited from creating content on Wikiversity; rather, you were given an opportunity to create ethical standards that would allow it. You immediately gave up because you were not getting your way. You did not take the opportunity to work on uncontroversially useful content. (You used to do that on Wikipedia.) So you went to Wikibooks. | |||
::Wikiversity was founded as a Wikibooks project. My understanding was that Wikibooks did not allow original research, and requires NPOV. (NPOV and academic freedom are in conflict, unless there is organizing structure). However, the reality is that Wikibooks does not enforce its own policies. Content you create on Wikibooks, then, may be far more unstable than content created on Wikiversity, if it's created the way that was suggested. All it will take is someone exercised to create a deletion discussion that points to policy. There have been plenty of Wikiversity deletion discussions where the allegations were that the content was bad or wrong or biased. Since I've been active on Wikiversity, few of those have closed with Delete, and deletion discussions have become rare, because there are so many alternatives to deletion. | |||
::You, of course, pick topics that are exceptions. Child protection (with arguments that can easily be read as "child molestation is not harmful"). Suicide methods (with detailed instructions, sources of drugs, etc.). Other difficult topics on Wikiversity are "descriptions" of Wikipedian behavior that are really attacks on individual Wikipedians, but which are covered under the euphemistic "Wiki studies." (This then is a bit like WikiIndex). There are only a few bans on Wikiversity, and they have come out of that. I managed to get two of these unbanned. One still is unbanned (and his meta ban and global lock were eventually undone). The other insisted on pursuing his grievances against individual Wikipedians, and, in fact, I was blocked for reverting his outing edits -- by then he was blocked again so he was evading the block. Revert warring! Irritated an admin no end, so he blocked. Then lifted it as "no longer necessary." Wiki people are *human.* | |||
::I was able to document wiki behavior in several cases. Those documents stand. One was the subject of a requested deletion. It was kept, and the reason is that I followed strict guidelines I set for myself. I did not claim that Wikipedia administrators who did such and such were wrong. Just that they did it. | |||
::The admin who blocked me is still a bureaucrat at Wikiversity. And almost never does anything, and he never did actually oppose my Wikiversitan agenda, he just hated the walls of text. He's a sound-bite kinda guy. My agenda there is a full realization of the goals of Wikiversity, and it has high consensus. | |||
::So, here, what is the goal of the wiki? Your participation is raising that question, so my hope is that it will be resolved. It's been murky, with mixed motives. I don't think the founder has a clear idea, himself, that is why you can see conflict in what is being proposed, and what he's approved of, or has personally done, before. This is an old wiki. There is a fork in the road. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 15:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | |||