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'''Welcome to ''WikiIndex''!''' | {{TOCright}} | ||
We hope you will contribute much and well. | '''Welcome to ''WikiIndex''!''' We hope you will contribute much and well. You will probably want to read the [[Help:Contents|help pages]]. Again, welcome and have fun! [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 21:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
You will probably want to read the [[Help:Contents|help pages]]. | |||
Again, welcome and have fun! [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 21:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
== Disclosure == | ==Disclosure== | ||
I came to Wikiindex because I was pointed here by [[Leucosticte]]. However, I'm not his meat puppet. I do not approve of his description of [[Nathania]], as an example. Leucosticte is, however, not a pedophile, has not been charged with any sex crimes, but is a radical libertarian who tends to take up highly unpopular causes, in the name of freedom, and then he will present what are often rational arguments to be considered. He then appears to be advocating the cause. | I came to Wikiindex because I was pointed here by [[Leucosticte]]. However, I'm not his meat puppet. I do not approve of his description of [[Nathania]], as an example. Leucosticte is, however, not a pedophile, has not been charged with any sex crimes, but is a radical libertarian who tends to take up highly unpopular causes, in the name of freedom, and then he will present what are often rational arguments to be considered. He then appears to be advocating the cause. | ||
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::::So, we never know what will come. Before I'm ready to file the RfC, I will identify support. If there is no support, I won't file. "Voice crying in the wilderness" is a formula for "waste of time." I've got plenty else to do! | ::::So, we never know what will come. Before I'm ready to file the RfC, I will identify support. If there is no support, I won't file. "Voice crying in the wilderness" is a formula for "waste of time." I've got plenty else to do! | ||
::::If I'm going to put up the evidence and analysis somewhere, it won't be here, where it could only be useless, at best, and it could do harm. It would be on | ::::If I'm going to put up the evidence and analysis somewhere, it won't be here, where it could only be useless, at best, and it could do harm. It would be on [[Wikipediocracy]], where I've been invited to write articles and blog posts. That's a place where someone might see it who can actually do something. Not here, Nathan. You have some sort of value in just "being right," or imagining that you are. I don't. I just do my work and see what happens. | ||
::::The other place where it might go would be as a private communication with Wales. I have a specific opportunity for that, don't know if I'm ready. His project, however, his baby, is being corrupted by gross violation of wiki principles and policies, and it might be possible to do something about it. As you know, I'm about principles and structure, the individual incidents don't really matter that much to me, though, of course, I ''act'' with respect to specifics, as demonstrations or examples. What I'm seeing is the tip of the iceberg, and the problem is not "bad users," but defective structure, I've been on that for years. | ::::The other place where it might go would be as a private communication with Wales. I have a specific opportunity for that, don't know if I'm ready. His project, however, his baby, is being corrupted by gross violation of wiki principles and policies, and it might be possible to do something about it. As you know, I'm about principles and structure, the individual incidents don't really matter that much to me, though, of course, I ''act'' with respect to specifics, as demonstrations or examples. What I'm seeing is the tip of the iceberg, and the problem is not "bad users," but defective structure, I've been on that for years. | ||
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You both make interesting and valid comments (and criticisms!), and for differing reasons, you are both correct. It is true that WikiIndex could have been accused of having poor policy structures in the past, and even today, our policies arn't the best in the wikisphere. However, just like Wikipedia, WikiIndex is also a wiki - albeit massively smaller! And because we are a wiki, we can evolve and grow our own policies to suit our primary aim (we are not an encyclopaedia, we merely document wikis, and all which makes wikis 'tick'). Without 'people', wikis would be nothing, so it is absolutely correct that we include 'wiki people' - be they constructive or destructive in the wiki experience. Arguably, one of the most fascinating aspects of a wiki are when peoples with differing ideologies and experiences come together and create something great. Whoever we are, and whatever our beliefs, we are all welcome here on WikiIndex, and all thoughts on moving forward will be discussed in an open and constructive manner. [[User:Hoof Hearted|Sean, aka <small>Hoof Hearted</small>]] • <sub>[[:Category:Active administrators of this wiki|Admin]] / [[WikiIndex:Bureaucrats|'Crat]]</sub> • <small>[[User talk:Hoof Hearted|talk2HH]]</small> 22:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | You both make interesting and valid comments (and criticisms!), and for differing reasons, you are both correct. It is true that WikiIndex could have been accused of having poor policy structures in the past, and even today, our policies arn't the best in the wikisphere. However, just like Wikipedia, WikiIndex is also a wiki - albeit massively smaller! And because we are a wiki, we can evolve and grow our own policies to suit our primary aim (we are not an encyclopaedia, we merely document wikis, and all which makes wikis 'tick'). Without 'people', wikis would be nothing, so it is absolutely correct that we include 'wiki people' - be they constructive or destructive in the wiki experience. Arguably, one of the most fascinating aspects of a wiki are when peoples with differing ideologies and experiences come together and create something great. Whoever we are, and whatever our beliefs, we are all welcome here on WikiIndex, and all thoughts on moving forward will be discussed in an open and constructive manner. [[User:Hoof Hearted|Sean, aka <small>Hoof Hearted</small>]] • <sub>[[:Category:Active administrators of this wiki|Admin]] / [[WikiIndex:Bureaucrats|'Crat]]</sub> • <small>[[User talk:Hoof Hearted|talk2HH]]</small> 22:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | ||
== What RONR has to say about attacking a member's motives == | ==What RONR has to say about attacking a member's motives== | ||
"REFRAINING FROM ATTACKING A MEMBER'S MOTIVES. When a question is pending, a member can condemn the nature or likely consequences of the proposed measure in strong terms, but he must avoid personalities, and under no circumstances can he attack or question the motives of another member. The measure, not the member, is the subject of debate." [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 08:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | "REFRAINING FROM ATTACKING A MEMBER'S MOTIVES. When a question is pending, a member can condemn the nature or likely consequences of the proposed measure in strong terms, but he must avoid personalities, and under no circumstances can he attack or question the motives of another member. The measure, not the member, is the subject of debate." [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 08:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
::What's the "measure"? RONR is formal process, and only allows one measure to be on the floor. However, when a series of measures are under consideration, the purpose of the ''series'' becomes relevant. RONR has means for summary resolution of certain kinds of disputes. As you know, that's often lacking on wikis. However, a basic principle is that, to be considered, a motion must be seconded. Motive, all the rest, is utterly irrelevant if there is no second. | ::What's the "measure"? RONR is formal process, and only allows one measure to be on the floor. However, when a series of measures are under consideration, the purpose of the ''series'' becomes relevant. RONR has means for summary resolution of certain kinds of disputes. As you know, that's often lacking on wikis. However, a basic principle is that, to be considered, a motion must be seconded. Motive, all the rest, is utterly irrelevant if there is no second. | ||
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:::''this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community and their associations to various Wiki sites | :::''this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community and their associations to various Wiki sites | ||
:::''Please add your name to this list by creating a new page for yourself. | :::''Please add your name to this list by creating a new page for yourself. | ||
::There is nothing there about creating pages on others. It's been done for some highly notable people. [[Jimbo Wales]], for example. Leucosticte created a page on me, [[Abd Lomax]]. It's not particularly offensive, though it points to a page that was intended to be so, from a dead wiki, with the material having been copied by Leucosticte to his wiki, [[RationalWikiWikiWiki]], [http://en.rationalwikiwikiwiki.org/wiki/Abd]. That page gives a warped history of my work, written from a pseudoskeptic | ::There is nothing there about creating pages on others. It's been done for some highly notable people. [[Jimbo Wales]], for example. Leucosticte created a page on me, [[Abd Lomax]]. It's not particularly offensive, though it points to a page that was intended to be so, from a dead wiki, with the material having been copied by Leucosticte to his wiki, [[RationalWikiWikiWiki]], [http://en.rationalwikiwikiwiki.org/wiki/Abd]. That page gives a warped history of my work, written from a pseudoskeptic [[RationalWiki]]an perspective, where the primary goal of all RW work was maximized snark. It tells little about my real history, who I actually am, my accomplishments, what I'm known internationally for, though there is a hint about one small facet of my career. | ||
::Allowing such material opens a huge can of worms. Hosting controversial criticism of wikis was considered in the past, here, and no consensus was found. That's because ''it's a difficult problem.'' --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 17:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ::Allowing such material opens a huge can of worms. Hosting controversial criticism of wikis was considered in the past, here, and no consensus was found. That's because ''it's a difficult problem.'' --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 17:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::"this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community" I'm sure that MZM, Nemo, etc. consider themselves ot be part of the wiki community. Therefore, they meet the criteria. Why don't YOU write an autobiography, if you want that other stuff to be included. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | :::"this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community" I'm sure that MZM, Nemo, etc. consider themselves ot be part of the wiki community. Therefore, they meet the criteria. Why don't YOU write an autobiography, if you want that other stuff to be included. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
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:::::Andy takes responsibility for his past. I suggest you reflect on that. It's a key to the future. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC) | :::::Andy takes responsibility for his past. I suggest you reflect on that. It's a key to the future. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Danish-German Neonazi == | ==Danish-German Neonazi== | ||
I am debating with {{u|Leucosticte}} and he is losing (I am getting upvotes), suddenly an anonymous person questions if I am German or French, I assume that the person is German, since the French wouldn't even whipe there asses with use, I make a bicycle-joke, I get a loud S.H. from the fellow, make a snarky remark and suddenly the person announces himself as a Danish-German Neonazi, who wants me to pick a forum where we can fight the "kinderschander" (written in German, not English) Leucosticte. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
I am debating with Leucosticte and he is losing (I am getting upvotes), suddenly an anonymous person questions if I am German or French, I assume that the person is German, since the French wouldn't even whipe there asses with use, I make a bicycle-joke, I get a loud S.H. from the fellow, make a snarky remark and suddenly the person announces himself as a Danish-German Neonazi, who wants me to pick a forum where we can fight the "kinderschander" (written in German, not English) Leucosticte. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
: Other small points, he places on of his posts above posts directed at my comment with support signs and a few days later he changes my userpage in a harmless manner, by correcting my spelling. I posted a message on his talk page saying that I will give permission to someone if they want to alter my userpage. As of this postdate, he has not responded to this remark on his talk page. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | : Other small points, he places on of his posts above posts directed at my comment with support signs and a few days later he changes my userpage in a harmless manner, by correcting my spelling. I posted a message on his talk page saying that I will give permission to someone if they want to alter my userpage. As of this postdate, he has not responded to this remark on his talk page. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
:: Honestly, I feel like I am being tested. Like someone is looking how I will react. I don't like it. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | :: Honestly, I feel like I am being tested. Like someone is looking how I will react. I don't like it. --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
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::::I was reportedly given a "[https://sites.google.com/a/iconopsych.com/psychlopedia-com/rule-out rule-out diagnosis]" of pedophilia, although I wasn't allowed to actually see the report; as you know, that matter is in litigation. A rule-out diagnosis is an informal diagnostic label that means "the client meets many of the symptoms but not enough to make a diagnosis at this time; it should be considered further." The use of rule-out diagnoses is not endorsed by the DSM-5 and is sometimes even considered bad practice. | ::::I was reportedly given a "[https://sites.google.com/a/iconopsych.com/psychlopedia-com/rule-out rule-out diagnosis]" of pedophilia, although I wasn't allowed to actually see the report; as you know, that matter is in litigation. A rule-out diagnosis is an informal diagnostic label that means "the client meets many of the symptoms but not enough to make a diagnosis at this time; it should be considered further." The use of rule-out diagnoses is not endorsed by the DSM-5 and is sometimes even considered bad practice. | ||
::::Isn't it [[wikipedia: | ::::Isn't it [[wikipedia:Censorship in the Federal Republic of Germany#National Socialist parties|against the law]] for people to go around endorsing Nazism in Germany? [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::::I think so. Perhaps some one in Germany could point out that some of the open proxies were on German servers, and server logs may exist and be legally accessible. Popcorn, $1 per bag. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | :::::I think so. Perhaps some one in Germany could point out that some of the open proxies were on German servers, and server logs may exist and be legally accessible. Popcorn, $1 per bag. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Trolls == | ==Trolls== | ||
Anyway, I got a message back from a German friend and he says your most likely being trolled by people from a Identitarian movement, or something similar to them. Many of them are dedicicated pedohunters. Ill post a link: [http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Identitarian]. | Anyway, I got a message back from a German friend and he says your most likely being trolled by people from a Identitarian movement, or something similar to them. Many of them are dedicicated pedohunters. Ill post a link: [http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Identitarian]. | ||
:Maybe. There were some hints in the edits. It would take too much time to track them down, and it doesn't really matter who they are. Thanks. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 18:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | :Maybe. There were some hints in the edits. It would take too much time to track them down, and it doesn't really matter who they are. Thanks. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 18:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Privilege-checking == | ==Privilege-checking== | ||
You wanna talk about [http://childrenwithprivilege.tumblr.com/ a site] at which children are objects, pawns in a pseudo-intellectual game... [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:17, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | You wanna talk about [http://childrenwithprivilege.tumblr.com/ a site] at which children are objects, pawns in a pseudo-intellectual game... [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:17, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
:last post 2012. I think they must have all died laughing. -- I'd imagine Somebody around here would think the pedophile joke was funniest, except, of course, that real children get charged with child sexual offenses. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | :last post 2012. I think they must have all died laughing. -- I'd imagine Somebody around here would think the pedophile joke was funniest, except, of course, that real children get charged with child sexual offenses. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Open proxies == | ==Open proxies== | ||
We probably need some better proxy blocking tools around here; otherwise, it'll just be a game of whack-a-mole. There's a daily-updated list [http://www.stopforumspam.com/downloads here] of several megabytes of open proxy IPs; this can be imported into the database using [[mw:Manual:addProxies.php]]. However, tech support on this wiki isn't the greatest in the world, so such a comprehensive solution will probably he hard to implement. The war on spammers and vandals will have to be fought on other fronts. | We probably need some better proxy blocking tools around here; otherwise, it'll just be a game of whack-a-mole. There's a daily-updated list [http://www.stopforumspam.com/downloads here] of several megabytes of open proxy IPs; this can be imported into the database using [[mw:Manual:addProxies.php]]. However, tech support on this wiki isn't the greatest in the world, so such a comprehensive solution will probably he hard to implement. The war on spammers and vandals will have to be fought on other fronts. | ||
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WikiIndex has CheckUser installed, and a few select sysops have access to that (follow the link on our Stats page). I've confirmed that the female moderator troll was abusing a few very different IP addresses, and so have been blocked accordingly. I havn't been able to make any direct links between the remainder of the IP addressess in the recent troll attacks - though I didn't go into great detail when checking. We do have the ability to block ranges of IP addresses - so if anyone notices a range of IPs being used for trolling or spamming, give me or any of the other sysops a heads up. [[User:Hoof Hearted|Sean, aka <small>Hoof Hearted</small>]] • <sub>[[:Category:Active administrators of this wiki|Admin]] / [[WikiIndex:Bureaucrats|'Crat]]</sub> • <small>[[User talk:Hoof Hearted|talk2HH]]</small> 22:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | WikiIndex has CheckUser installed, and a few select sysops have access to that (follow the link on our Stats page). I've confirmed that the female moderator troll was abusing a few very different IP addresses, and so have been blocked accordingly. I havn't been able to make any direct links between the remainder of the IP addressess in the recent troll attacks - though I didn't go into great detail when checking. We do have the ability to block ranges of IP addresses - so if anyone notices a range of IPs being used for trolling or spamming, give me or any of the other sysops a heads up. [[User:Hoof Hearted|Sean, aka <small>Hoof Hearted</small>]] • <sub>[[:Category:Active administrators of this wiki|Admin]] / [[WikiIndex:Bureaucrats|'Crat]]</sub> • <small>[[User talk:Hoof Hearted|talk2HH]]</small> 22:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Question == | ==Question== | ||
Dear Abd, could we talk in private? Perhaps via mail? --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 12:31, 5 May 2014 (UTC) | Dear Abd, could we talk in private? Perhaps via mail? --[[User:Redgreenfourties|Redgreenfourties]] ([[User talk:Redgreenfourties|talk]]) 12:31, 5 May 2014 (UTC) | ||
:Sure. Use the wiki email interface. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 12:59, 5 May 2014 (UTC) | :Sure. Use the wiki email interface. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 12:59, 5 May 2014 (UTC) | ||
== difficult == | ==difficult== | ||
Do You think You are less difficult? | Do You think You are less difficult? | ||
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I do change headers rather often. Mostly to adapt to the content. In this case because the header was calling me names. So I kicked the ball back. Poor Dave was too upset to play the game right. So eventually he called me a WikiWikiWeb user which counteracted his intention behind his so called hard-ban. Proper title would be: "Dave Voorhis cries about Manorainjans unexpected belligerent reaction to his unwarranted so called hard-ban on wards wiki." ;-) [[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) 08:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC) | I do change headers rather often. Mostly to adapt to the content. In this case because the header was calling me names. So I kicked the ball back. Poor Dave was too upset to play the game right. So eventually he called me a WikiWikiWeb user which counteracted his intention behind his so called hard-ban. Proper title would be: "Dave Voorhis cries about Manorainjans unexpected belligerent reaction to his unwarranted so called hard-ban on wards wiki." ;-) [[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) 08:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
== [[WikiIndex:Teamwork Info]] == | ==[[WikiIndex:Teamwork Info]]== | ||
This is a proposal for a new wiki community related feature. | This is a proposal for a new wiki community related feature. | ||
I hope You like the idea and find a way to integrate this table on Your User Page. | I hope You like the idea and find a way to integrate this table on Your User Page. | ||
{| class="wikitable sortable" style= | {|class="wikitable sortable" style=background:#dddd00 | ||
! Online Accessibility !! E-mail !! Commitment !! Exeptions !! UTC !! Skills !! Duty !! Rank !! Propensities | ! Online Accessibility !! E-mail !! Commitment !! Exeptions !! UTC !! Skills !! Duty !! Rank !! Propensities | ||
|- | |- | ||
| ? || yes || - || - || ? || || - || User || consensus | | ? || yes || - || - || ? || || - || User || consensus | ||
|} | |} | ||
It's first try. I'm happy if You help to improve it. Details filled in lines other than mine are of course only for demonstration. I'm curious to see how You might fill it. --[[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) 13:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Response== | |||
== Response == | |||
'''See my talk''' [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 06:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC) | '''See my talk''' [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 06:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Wiki people == | ==Wiki people== | ||
Perhaps you'd care to weigh in on [[WikiIndex talk:Community portal#Criteria for Wiki People pages|this discussion]]. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:02, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
==Two concerns== | |||
So, Koavf is concerned about WikiIndex being used to promote users and wikis, while you're concerned about WikiIndex being used to denigrate users and wikis. {{u|MarvelZuvembie}} was saying, "Wiki People pages were originally generated by the people themselves. I think it should stay that way. That's my criteria" while it seemed like Koavf's concern was that if people created pages on themselves, they would tend to be self-promotional. | |||
== Two concerns == | |||
So, Koavf is concerned about WikiIndex being used to promote users and wikis, while you're concerned about WikiIndex being used to denigrate users and wikis. | |||
Basically, it sounds like the only people who can create anything here are those who have no agenda, but why would such people bother? People usually create content about stuff they're interested in, whether because they have a strong like or dislike for it. It's kinda similar to how survey results tend to be biased either extremely positively or extremely negatively, because the only people who bother to fill out surveys are usually customers who are either extremely pleased or displeased with a company's product. | Basically, it sounds like the only people who can create anything here are those who have no agenda, but why would such people bother? People usually create content about stuff they're interested in, whether because they have a strong like or dislike for it. It's kinda similar to how survey results tend to be biased either extremely positively or extremely negatively, because the only people who bother to fill out surveys are usually customers who are either extremely pleased or displeased with a company's product. | ||
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There was never really a policy created on what point of view WikiIndex pages are supposed to have. Are they supposed to be neutral, like Wikipedia? Sympathetic, like Wikinfo? Hostile, like Encyclopedia Dramatica? It's anyone's guess. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 23:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | There was never really a policy created on what point of view WikiIndex pages are supposed to have. Are they supposed to be neutral, like Wikipedia? Sympathetic, like Wikinfo? Hostile, like Encyclopedia Dramatica? It's anyone's guess. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 23:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
:I prefer that Koavf state his position for himself. Koavf is a Wikipedian. Wikipedians are trained to think that self-promotion is Bad. However, in fact, on Wikipedia, self-promotion is allowed in certain contexts, such as one's user page. Normally. Unless a Steward gets upset. Some stewards seem to think that self-promotion is Evil. However, most or all of the WMF wikis allow an established user *on their own user page* to promote their accomplishments, etc. They may block a newbie for spam. And, in fact, many of those newbie self-descriptive pages *are* spam. | :I prefer that Koavf state his position for himself. Koavf is a [[Wikipedian]]. Wikipedians are trained to think that self-promotion is Bad. However, in fact, on Wikipedia, self-promotion is allowed in certain contexts, such as one's user page. Normally. Unless a Steward gets upset. Some stewards seem to think that self-promotion is Evil. However, most or all of the WMF wikis allow an established user *on their own user page* to promote their accomplishments, etc. They may block a newbie for spam. And, in fact, many of those newbie self-descriptive pages *are* spam. | ||
:Here, it was classic that users created their own listings. Of course they would be self-promotional! However, a certain user turned his wiki listings into a blog on everything you ever might have wanted to know about the wiki, it's history, it's disruptive users, it's drama with providers, and everything you didn't want to know about his personal life. | :Here, it was classic that users created their own listings. Of course they would be self-promotional! However, a certain user turned his wiki listings into a blog on everything you ever might have wanted to know about the wiki, it's history, it's disruptive users, it's drama with providers, and everything you didn't want to know about his personal life. | ||
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:I see WikiIndex as having, and for a long time, a narrow purpose, with most users believing they understood it, and working on it here and there. It was mostly a low-conflict wiki, because of that narrowness of purpose. It was, I think, *effectively clear,* the policy. Except, of course, it wasn't formal, documented, and, when problems arose, it was largely unenforced. Wikis die if they don't clear this passage. [[User:Abd|Abd]] | :I see WikiIndex as having, and for a long time, a narrow purpose, with most users believing they understood it, and working on it here and there. It was mostly a low-conflict wiki, because of that narrowness of purpose. It was, I think, *effectively clear,* the policy. Except, of course, it wasn't formal, documented, and, when problems arose, it was largely unenforced. Wikis die if they don't clear this passage. [[User:Abd|Abd]] | ||
::I'm not sure this is the first time these sorts of issues have arisen here. I don't think anyone has written a very thorough history of WikiIndex; there's no WikiIndexWiki to document the conflicts, and a lot of conflicts are settled in places other than the community portal. I can see, though, that requests for explicit rules have been pending since [[ | ::I'm not sure this is the first time these sorts of issues have arisen here. I don't think anyone has written a very thorough history of WikiIndex; there's no WikiIndexWiki to document the conflicts, and a lot of conflicts are settled in places other than the community portal. I can see, though, that requests for explicit rules have been pending since [[User talk:MarkDilley/Archive5#Please help develop explicit rules|at least 2009]]. The question about the point of view of the wiki [[User talk:MarkDilley/Archive4#Conserva.C3.A8dia|goes back to 2008]]. Really, RationalWiki was a pretty big test case here, and we see how that ended up. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 00:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
:[[User:Proxima Centauri]] was a sysop here and a RationalWikian. She protected the RationalWiki listing while involved and was desysopped over it. However, I see no sign that policy was developed from the incidents. So then it happens all over again. I look at what was written then, people -- including one long-time sysop here -- wrote quite a bit. It is as if the wiki spat in their face, what you write means jack. Of course, they did not, themselves, write policy, they just gave their opinion. And that is common on wikis. Yak yak yak. Nothing. Repeat. Then someone violates a policy that was never explicit, and gets banned. They should have known better. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 01:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC) | :[[User:Proxima Centauri]] was a sysop here and a RationalWikian. She protected the RationalWiki listing while involved and was desysopped over it. However, I see no sign that policy was developed from the incidents. So then it happens all over again. I look at what was written then, people -- including one long-time sysop here -- wrote quite a bit. It is as if the wiki spat in their face, what you write means jack. Of course, they did not, themselves, write policy, they just gave their opinion. And that is common on wikis. Yak yak yak. Nothing. Repeat. Then someone violates a policy that was never explicit, and gets banned. They should have known better. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 01:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
::I thought you hated the singular "they"? Anyway, yeah, I hadn't noticed he'd [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AProxima+Centauri&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= been desysoped] over that. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 01:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC) | ::I thought you hated the singular "they"? Anyway, yeah, I hadn't noticed he'd [http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AProxima+Centauri&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= been desysoped] over that. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 01:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
== Please stop vandalism/deletions == | ==Please stop vandalism/deletions== | ||
Please refrain from dictating policy. You do not get to require people to create accounts and declare certain edits unworthy and requiring of revert because they were not made by a registered user. Please stop. | Please refrain from dictating policy. You do not get to require people to create accounts and declare certain edits unworthy and requiring of revert because they were not made by a registered user. Please stop. | ||
A simple rDNS lookup would tell you that this is the IP address of the Akula server Ehrenburg owned by Krasnaya Security. There are at most, < five people who could be using this computer. Any attack you make is very direct. –maelstr0m [[Special:Contributions/173.255.192.138|173.255.192.138]] 19:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | A simple rDNS lookup would tell you that this is the IP address of the Akula server Ehrenburg owned by Krasnaya Security. There are at most, < five people who could be using this computer. Any attack you make is very direct. –maelstr0m [[Special:Contributions/173.255.192.138|173.255.192.138]] 19:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:Yes, batshit crazy. You have made comments that are personal, ("my wikis"), and you lie in your posts and edit summaries, but you do not identify as personal. I have no obligation to research your effing IP. Ordinary edits, no problem. Libel and highly disruptive material, like ban requests, as you have been adding, big problem. Stay off my Talk page, unless logged in. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | :Yes, batshit crazy. You have made comments that are personal, ("my wikis"), and you lie in your posts and edit summaries, but you do not identify as personal. I have no obligation to research your effing IP. Ordinary edits, no problem. Libel and highly disruptive material, like ban requests, as you have been adding, big problem. Stay off my Talk page, unless logged in. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
::I would like to apologize for the trouble the above user has caused. I have examined their edits and allegations, and frankly, I too found it disruptive and your edits have, to my examination, proven reasonable and appropriate. I have blocked the IP for their disruption and again apologize for the trouble they have caused you. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 20:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ::I would like to apologize for the trouble the above user has caused. I have examined their edits and allegations, and frankly, I too found it disruptive and your edits have, to my examination, proven reasonable and appropriate. I have blocked the IP for their disruption and again apologize for the trouble they have caused you. [[User:Arcane|Arcane]] ([[User talk:Arcane|talk]]) 20:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:::Edit conflict with the above. Thanks, Arcane. Below, before I saw the above, I explain a bit about what I was doing. It's a basic wiki technique for a regular user dealing with serious disruption. It works. Occasionally, I've been blocked for "revert warring," but, in the end, I've always been vindicated, because I am *always* seeking consensus and standing for community welfare, as my goal. The multiple edits call rapid attention to the problem. It's very simple to stop my activity: just ask me! If this were a bit worse, I'd be asking for revision deletion. I think, under the circumstances, it probably doesn't matter. Nobody will take those claims seriously. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | :::Edit conflict with the above. Thanks, Arcane. Below, before I saw the above, I explain a bit about what I was doing. It's a basic wiki technique for a regular user dealing with serious disruption. It works. Occasionally, I've been blocked for "revert warring," but, in the end, I've always been vindicated, because I am *always* seeking consensus and standing for community welfare, as my goal. The multiple edits call rapid attention to the problem. It's very simple to stop my activity: just ask me! If this were a bit worse, I'd be asking for revision deletion. I think, under the circumstances, it probably doesn't matter. Nobody will take those claims seriously. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
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===How to restore the content I'm reverting=== | ===How to restore the content I'm reverting=== | ||
*Any admin may ask me to stop reverting and I will. (Basic wiki user rule: admin requests abstaining from behavior, abstain. Discuss if one disagrees. Admins, defacto, and roughly, represent consensus.) The admin is then taking responsibility for this content being appropriate for WikiIndex, that's all. | *Any admin may ask me to stop reverting and I will. (Basic wiki user rule: admin requests abstaining from behavior, abstain. Discuss if one disagrees. Admins, defacto, and roughly, represent consensus.) The admin is then taking responsibility for this content being appropriate for WikiIndex, that's all. | ||
*Any regular user may undo my revert and it will stand. I am not allowing Leucosticte to do this, because he both attracts and enjoys and foments disruption around his participation. Obviously, I'm not going to allow the IP to attack him, and the IP is also attacking a whole list of people, including lying about "policy" at RationalWiki.[ | *Any regular user may undo my revert and it will stand. I am not allowing Leucosticte to do this, because he both attracts and enjoys and foments disruption around his participation. Obviously, I'm not going to allow the IP to attack him, and the IP is also attacking a whole list of people, including lying about "policy" at RationalWiki.[https://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Template:RationalWiki&diff=186861&oldid=186856] RationalWiki is itself batshit crazy, but so what? --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
::I don't think he was being disruptive, really, except by edit warring. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ::I don't think he was being disruptive, really, except by edit warring. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 20:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:::I don't care what you think, Leucosticte. Did you read what he wrote on the RationalWiki template? I didn't ask for him to be blocked, he brought that on himself. His attacks on you were *disruptive.* You might as well argue that the sky is not blue. Maybe it's not, maybe it's a sandstorm or a s***storm. Now, I have other things to do today... --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | :::I don't care what you think, Leucosticte. Did you read what he wrote on the RationalWiki template? I didn't ask for him to be blocked, he brought that on himself. His attacks on you were *disruptive.* You might as well argue that the sky is not blue. Maybe it's not, maybe it's a sandstorm or a s***storm. Now, I have other things to do today... --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
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:::::One of the attachment therapists used to say that when someone said something really obvious. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 22:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | :::::One of the attachment therapists used to say that when someone said something really obvious. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 22:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Arguing with a sysop who is issuing a warning == | ==Arguing with a sysop who is issuing a warning== | ||
I don't see why it's a bad idea to argue with a sysop who is issuing a warning. Suppose I accidentally park my car in such a way as to take up two parking spaces on a street instead of one, and a cop comes up to me with his gun drawn, saying, "You parked illegally. If you do that again, I'm going to have to arrest you." I would probably think, "This is strange behavior, since parking illegally is normally not an offense that would warrant making an arrest. Also, why does he have his gun out?" This would make me think the more serious problem was the cop's overreaction, and see that as an issue that might be worthwhile to address. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:12, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | I don't see why it's a bad idea to argue with a sysop who is issuing a warning. Suppose I accidentally park my car in such a way as to take up two parking spaces on a street instead of one, and a cop comes up to me with his gun drawn, saying, "You parked illegally. If you do that again, I'm going to have to arrest you." I would probably think, "This is strange behavior, since parking illegally is normally not an offense that would warrant making an arrest. Also, why does he have his gun out?" This would make me think the more serious problem was the cop's overreaction, and see that as an issue that might be worthwhile to address. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 18:12, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:Right. You don't see it. I've been talking with my daughter about a situation like the one you imagine with the cop. There are times to argue with policy. When the officer has a gun drawn is not one of them. Further, failing to obey the "lawful order" of a police officer can be a crime. "Lawful order" does not mean that he was right. | :Right. You don't see it. I've been talking with my daughter about a situation like the one you imagine with the cop. There are times to argue with policy. When the officer has a gun drawn is not one of them. Further, failing to obey the "lawful order" of a police officer can be a crime. "Lawful order" does not mean that he was right. | ||
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:I made a different choice. I asked the social worker for help. I demonstrated cooperation. I was *not* subservient, I simply did not challenge what did not really matter. My daughter strongly disliked the woman, thinking she was judgmental, and she was. I suggested that she look for how this woman was helping us, and, guess what actually happened? The woman helped. A lot. I could have made her an enemy, easily. However, I knew what made her tick. She has a job, and she sees her job as helping people and protecting children. So, hey, *we are on the same side.* I thanked her and acknowledged her for that. We may not agree on this or that. She told me I had to do this or that, which I didn't do. I did something different, that satisfied her and that was spectacularly successful. That case was closed because there was no more crisis. There was a whole network, a "team," of social workers set up to support my family, at one point we were seeing about six per week. That's all been shut down, now, *because we don't need it.* Everybody won. Well, almost everybody, I'm still working with my ex, she hasn't won yet. But she will, unless she prefers otherwise. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | :I made a different choice. I asked the social worker for help. I demonstrated cooperation. I was *not* subservient, I simply did not challenge what did not really matter. My daughter strongly disliked the woman, thinking she was judgmental, and she was. I suggested that she look for how this woman was helping us, and, guess what actually happened? The woman helped. A lot. I could have made her an enemy, easily. However, I knew what made her tick. She has a job, and she sees her job as helping people and protecting children. So, hey, *we are on the same side.* I thanked her and acknowledged her for that. We may not agree on this or that. She told me I had to do this or that, which I didn't do. I did something different, that satisfied her and that was spectacularly successful. That case was closed because there was no more crisis. There was a whole network, a "team," of social workers set up to support my family, at one point we were seeing about six per week. That's all been shut down, now, *because we don't need it.* Everybody won. Well, almost everybody, I'm still working with my ex, she hasn't won yet. But she will, unless she prefers otherwise. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 19:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
== [[Williamapercy.com]] and [[Brongersma]] == | ==[[Williamapercy.com]] and [[Brongersma]]== | ||
I wonder why Koavf missed those two? See, e.g., http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pederasty_and_Homosexuality and http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=When_a_boy_wants_a_man [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 04:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC) | I wonder why Koavf missed those two? See, e.g., http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pederasty_and_Homosexuality and http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=When_a_boy_wants_a_man [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 04:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:Trouble, seeking to make trouble. Diagnostic. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 02:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC) | :Trouble, seeking to make trouble. Diagnostic. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 02:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Sea lion == | ==Sea lion== | ||
[http://wondermark.com/1k62/ Sometimes] it's so hard to get people to back up their statements. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 01:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC) | [http://wondermark.com/1k62/ Sometimes] it's so hard to get people to back up their statements. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 01:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
:Indeed. It appears that you think people should back up their statements, to your satisfaction. Where did you get that? It's one thing to question what people say (it's quite normal), but it is quite another to demand proof, unless you are a defense attorney and even then, badgering or sea-lioning a witness is not a great strategy. It irritates the judge and jury. And if you say that to the judge, duck, because he or she will throw the book at you. | :Indeed. It appears that you think people should back up their statements, to your satisfaction. Where did you get that? It's one thing to question what people say (it's quite normal), but it is quite another to demand proof, unless you are a defense attorney and even then, badgering or sea-lioning a witness is not a great strategy. It irritates the judge and jury. And if you say that to the judge, duck, because he or she will throw the book at you. | ||
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:::::Satisfactorily according to whom? Who are these SJWs? I'm seeing an entire fantasy world, a caricature of reality, not reality, and a series of fantasy people, each of whom thinks the next is even worse. This is the sea lion I imagine, from the cartoon: it will never go away, until and unless the woman agrees completely with it. Real sea lions are far easier to satisfy. Say what you like, just don't touch their fish. Or threaten their pups. Or even ''look like'' you are threatening their pups. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 14:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC) | :::::Satisfactorily according to whom? Who are these SJWs? I'm seeing an entire fantasy world, a caricature of reality, not reality, and a series of fantasy people, each of whom thinks the next is even worse. This is the sea lion I imagine, from the cartoon: it will never go away, until and unless the woman agrees completely with it. Real sea lions are far easier to satisfy. Say what you like, just don't touch their fish. Or threaten their pups. Or even ''look like'' you are threatening their pups. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 14:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Weigh in on [[WikiIndex:ServerName#Poll]]? == | ==Weigh in on [[WikiIndex:ServerName#Poll]]?== | ||
I like to inform You about a likely [[WikiIndex:ServerName|decision to change the domain of our wiki]]. | I like to inform You about a likely [[WikiIndex:ServerName|decision to change the domain of our wiki]]. Maybe You have an opinion on this, suggest additional names even. Please take part in the decision finding process. --22:21, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) | ||
Maybe You have an opinion on this, suggest additional names even. | |||
Please take part in the decision finding process. | |||
--22:21, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[[User:Manorainjan|Manorainjan]] ([[User talk:Manorainjan|talk]]) | |||
:Thanks. I did. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 00:37, 14 March 2015 (UTC) | :Thanks. I did. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 00:37, 14 March 2015 (UTC) | ||
== Yawn == | ==Yawn== | ||
This place sure got boring. I think once a wiki becomes [[:Category:ByInvitation]], its days tend to be kinda numbered, since the impediment to editing prevents much new blood from coming in. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 09:31, 20 May 2015 (PDT) | This place sure got boring. I think once a wiki becomes [[:Category:ByInvitation]], its days tend to be kinda numbered, since the impediment to editing prevents much new blood from coming in. [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 09:31, 20 May 2015 (PDT) | ||