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==Advice for those involved in disputes==
==The policy development page as edited by Lumenos and administrators here ([[user_talk:Huw Powell|the Huwman]] did not approve)==


There is a kind of policy that we are to be "nice". This means the wiki articles are more or less written in a viewpoint that is sympathetic to the wiki (unless no one disputes any critical comments that are added). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
[[Category: WikiIndex]]
[[Category: Guidelines]]
{{RightTOC}}


The reason for this is that WikiIndex administration does not wish to play host to edit "warring" or debates, even debates about the content of articles. For example, if your edit is repeatedly deleted (in apparent defiance of the "no delete policy") you may still face administrative discipline for trying to rewrite a "controversial" edit, or enforce this "no delete policy" yourself. If you find yourself in a dispute that you cannot quickly resolve, it is recommended that you post a link to another wiki, forum, chatroom, etc, to do your debating, negotiating, or long dialogs. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
The WikiIndex administration is in the process of developing and explaining their guidelines, principles, and policies. '''This page is being used for policy development and is not an official guide.''' For now, administrators monitor the site and usually suggest better ways of doing things. Issues of immediate concern can be posted [[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki|here]]. For a few simple guidelines, see [[WikiIndex:Editing etiquette]] or [[WikiIndex:Guidelines]]. For other guidelines, see [[:Category:Guidelines]]. Block policy is being discussed at [[WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy]].
:If you persist in "arguing" (or even what may seem to you to be polite debate or discussion) a consequence may be that articles are moved to talk pages and locked without much warning. The judgment you get from WikiIndex administration may be surprising, or take a superficial view of your dispute. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
::One alternative is to ask your opponent if they will agree to arbitration. If you can find anyone who is willing to judge your issue, you are likely to get a judgment that is more to your satisfaction. It might help to decide on a limit (in terms of number of characters, for example) that each side will be able to post in a formalized debate, before this judgment is made. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT)


==The old policy development page==
Right now, we only have a couple of rules, which have arisen from direct experience:
 
# Actual [[Spam_Control_Policy|commercial spam will be mercilessly deleted]]. Irrelevant content should be instead marked for deletion, to allow a review first. One man's "irrelevant" can be another's "interesting".
# Edit warring and long arguments are not appreciated. If you find yourself repeatedly restoring content somebody else keeps deleting (or the other way around), let them have their way for the time being (administrators will appreciate this) and try a different approach:
::*Go to their discussion page and/or the article discussion page. Write a polite request, question, or justification for your position.
::*After a few posts, if you find the discussion is mostly argument, with no end in sight, you might ask your "opponent" to meet you at another location. For example, invite them to another wiki or the [[WikiIndex:Chatroom|WikiIndex IRC chatroom]].
::*You might create a voting poll on the article's talk page, to get feedback from other editors.
::*Ask your opponent if they will agree to the judgment of an arbiter. Anyone may be chosen as a judge for your issue, if you all can agree to it. (You may want to ask an arbiter how much they are willing to read before making their decision, so you have some idea of how much you need to reduce your summary.)
::*If these methods fail or you want a simpler solution, ask for arbitration [[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki|here]] or on [[:Category:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki|an administrator's]] talk page.
[[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 03:35, 4 October 2009 (EDT) [expanded by [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)]
 
A discussion of possible policies follows. See also [[WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines]]. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 03:35, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
 
==Sources of inspiration==
 
Other wikis have been through this already and have developed interesting guidelines, some of which we could use ourselves.
 
* Wikipedia says [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Assume Good Faith]. This is important!
* WardsWiki has some words on [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GoodStyle Good Style] and a treatment of [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?UnethicalEditing Unethical Editing].
*[[RationalWiki]] developed a set of "[http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards community standards]", and updated them successfully. All is documented on the [http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:Community_Standards talk page] and its archives. (Added by Huw Powel)
 
Feel free to add others. -- [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 03:56, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
 
==Content inclusion rules==
 
'''The following are proposals''':
 
# Articles can say anything as long as no-one contests it.
# <del>Articles should preferably stick to facts (e.g. "wiki X claims that Y on page Z").</del> [Strikeout by [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)]
 
The first was proposed on IRC by [[User:Lumenos]]; I think it is likely to cause trouble, hence my counter-proposal. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 03:35, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well actually I was proposing that you have a speedy delete policy that is connected to the block policy for things like biographical information that is obtained in an illegitimate (illegal) manner. Same with things like spam and copyrighted work. Beyond those basic ("common sense") rules, you might not need to forbid things like "criticism", "original research", "unverified claims", etc, if these aren't contested. '''This is to address those who prefer NOT having "rules" that are "strict", "explicit", etc.''' I'm suggesting you need only get out the rule book when people aren't being "nice". But if you want a smoother ride, it might be easier to have a policy that wiki articles are to be always from a sympathetic viewpoint, for example. It is difficult to say if that would be less controversial than an "neutral point of view". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 
==Criticism of wikis==
 
Criticism is controversial. The majority of the WikiIndex administration doesn't seem to like having to mediate and deal with conflicts. Therefore I am suggesting that wiki articles will probably have to be in a sympathetic viewpoint. A possible alternative is to streamline or "outsource", the process of dispute resolution. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 
DavidCary (sysop) writing on this subject can be found [[Talk:RationalWiki/Archive1#Wikiindex|here]] (used to be [[Talk:RationalWiki#Wikiindex|here]]). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 20:02, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 
----
 
The following are some administrative comments that seemed to suggest that wiki criticism may have been allowable:
 
MarkDilly seems to be the only active bureaucrat, this would appear to be a quote from [[Category_talk:Active_administrators_of_this_wiki#Conservapedia.2C_RationalWiki_etc|this location]]: ''"I can understand that folks from Conservapedia don't want the page on [[WikiIndex]] about their wiki to be overrun by criticism - and I can also understand that people want to talk about problems they have with the wiki.  Why not take it to a page [[Constructive Criticism of Conservapedia]] and simply make one line / link on the [[Conservapedia]] page pointing to this.  ~~ [[MarkDilley]]''" [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 20:02, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 
Are the articles on wikis to be sympathetic, critical, both, or "neutral"? ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view <del>Wikipedia supposedly uses the "neutral" approach].</del>
::<del>This offers much opportunity for censorship and edit waring. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]</del>
:[http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Main_Page Wikinfo] deals with edit wars by making the [http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Wikinfo:Sympathetic_point_of_view main article sympathetic], and posting a link at the top of that article, to an article devoted solely to criticism.
::This sort of policy sounds like it might work here, if y'all agree. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:::It's cumbersome at [[Wikinfo]] but it's better than not allowing criticism at all.[[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:34, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 
==Disputed information==
 
* '''Tag:''' Placing "<del>warning</del> tags" on info that is dubious, impolite, etc. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
:* Warning tags are too strong - I like the idea of tags and think they should point to constructive information. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]
::* Okay, that makes sense for dubious, impolite info. We have page deletion tag that may serve as a "warning". Another example might be a tag if a page may be relocated to the talk page. Something about how this can be prevented. Once we have policies, the tag may point to the relevant polices. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 
*'''Relocating an article about a wiki, to the talk page, and locking the article:'''
:Are we supposed to be agreeing on a version of the article? [...][[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:24, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
::We don't need to agree on a particular version of any article. If something's wrong with the content, we can simply mark the trouble spots with notes like "citation needed" and "ambiguous - please clarify". The one thing that should be a no-no is reverting or deleting edits with no good reason. By the way, "because I say so", or "because that's the way we do over at wiki X" are NOT good reasons. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 02:11, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
 
== Point of view, commenting in articles ==
 
[I suggested what I thought would be called a "neutral point of view" for this article. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 20:14, September 21, 2009 (UTC)]
: '''''I disagree strongly with Neutral Point of View for this wiki.  I understand that it is for this page only - and I am not sure that is still a good thing. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''''
::The question is, what would be a better thing? I've listed some other options [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines#How_sympathetic_or_critical.3F_.28Who_decides.3F.29|here]]. I don't see how we would have a sympathetic POV for this page, unless maybe it is "sympathetic" to "WikiIndex" but I'm not sure what that would mean. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
::What potential problems do you see with this "NPOV" here? (It is not Wikipedia's NPOV, BTW) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
:: '''Those are fair comments - I just don't know what NPOV would do for us here.  My experience with wiki, is that if I say something that is outrageous and inflammatory - someone comes in and fixes it - keeps the meaning but ''neutralizes'' it. So I do agree with not creating an atmosphere of forest fire mentality or edit waring or flaming. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''
 
::<del>We are allowing "commenting" on this page, but I don't want to open up debates about specific conflicts. This is my reason for the "NPOV". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
::: '''I think that commenting on any page is ''allowed'' - that is how wiki has worked for many places before Wikipedia.  ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''
 
(Here is [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Npov Wikipedia's policy of a neutral point of view] if this may give us any ideas.) -- [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
 
::Another idea would be to use the talk page for "comments" but <del>the whole thing is pretty much my "POV", so I don't want to exclude others. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)</del>
::: '''''Glad that you are interested in inclusion. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''''
:::I feel strongly that we should be signing our proposals and claims here and I thank you for doing so. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:51, 4 September 2009 (EDT)
:::: '''Ditto ~~ [[MarkDilley]]'''
:::I've tried to remove or strike-out nearly everything that could be considered my POV. I've left only some things that the administration has responded to. The old style of this policy page (which I was referring to as being in my POV) can be found [[User:Lumenos/WikiIndex (unwritten) policies|here]]. (Really what I meant was that the original page had a number of my policy ''proposals'', questions, and observations. The ideas of having the outline structure based on a sort of [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Conflict_theory conflict theory], and drawing a distinction between manifest and latent "policy", were mine, also.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 20:58, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 
==Biographical info==
 
For now I would suggest the standard be defined by "local" laws and [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Wikipedia's policy on biographical info] until a standard more specific to WikiIndex can be established. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]]
 
Since this is WikiIndex, I'd stick to people who are important in the world of Wikis, such as creators of established engines and people like Jimmy Wales. For guidelines on ''how''  to write the biographies, Wikipedia does look like a good model to follow. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 12:07, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
:I linked to the wrong Wikipedia policy. I'm really thinking more of a speedy deletion policy that applies to talk pages also. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:02, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 
==Common sense proposal [for this project page]==
This is a small and relatively inactive wiki. It hardly needs a very large policies and guidelines section - which admins and users are unlikely to read anyway. What it needs are active, fair-minded admins who use common sense.
 
I therefore propose that this whole page be replaced with the words:  '''"The wiki admins will monitor the wiki and use their common sense to resolve issues.  Where there is a dispute it will be resolved between the active admins on the site.''' (Or alternatively a vote amongst the active users.) --[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 14:16, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 
:I beg to differ. At 4668 content pages and dozens of edits a day, WikiIndex is hardly small or inactive. Remember, Wikipedia is an outlier, completely off the scales when compared to anything else. That said, I agree we should rely on common sense more than rules. But rules are useful as general guidelines. Just to get everyone on the same page, you know (pun intended). [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 02:16, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
:[I removed only my comments that had appeared here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 21:07, September 21, 2009 (UTC)]
: ''Frankly - the common sense understanding of how to prevent it, was for everyone to stop the name calling, stop the edit warring and slow down. This page is in need of pairing down and I think BobM provides a clear path on that road. ~~ [[MarkDilley]]''
::(Based on the above comment and [[User_talk:Lumenos#Please slow down|this one]] I moved the content of [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines&oldid=71512 this page] to [[User:Lumenos/WikiIndex (unwritten) policies|this subpage]], and replaced the page with Bob's suggestion. I have since moved administrative comments back in. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 21:22, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 
----
----
==The complete old policy development page (mostly Lumenos' work)==


The most recent version of the old "policy development" page can be found at [[Lumeniki]], [http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/WikiIndex_(unwritten)_policies here]. I may get around to separating out the policy proposals and the observations of "unwritten" policies and editors influences over WikiIndex. Comments of others, appearing on that page, I plan to move to [[WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT))
The most recent version of the old "policy development" page can be found at [[Lumeniki]], [http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/WikiIndex_(unwritten)_policies here]. I may get around to separating out the policy proposals and the observations of "unwritten" policies and editors influences over WikiIndex. Comments of others, appearing on that page, I plan to move to [[WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:44, 30 September 2009 (EDT))
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