User talk:Hoof Hearted

A warm welcome to my talk / discussion page, 172.69.59.105 :-) If you wish to talk to me about a new subject not already listed here, please click on the 'new section' (or '+') tab at the top of the screen to start a new subject. Or if you wish to reply to an existing comment (either on my talk page or any other talk page), please click on the section [edit] to the right of the relevant subject header line, and please indent your replies with one (or more) colon(s) (:) as appropriate. Please, PLEASE add your signature (-- ~~~~) to all comments or replies you make. If comments or questions are asked on this page, I will leave my answer here (so please add my talk page to your 'watchlist'). For comments or questions left on other pages, my replies or answers will be left on those specific pages (so again, please add those to your watchlist if you wish to follow any replies). If you miss previous discussions (which are now no longer visible), you may look through any historical items of discussion by clicking on the 'history' tab at the top of the page. Occasionally, I might remove and archive completed topics which may no longer be relevant, and there is no point in having a cluttered talk page!

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Welcome back!

Happy to have you It looks like you decided to do a small spate of edits a few weeks back. I hope you choose to stay. Koavf (talk) 19:50, 10 October 2016 (PDT)

Hello again If you are willing, please contact me off-wiki. My email address is [my first name]koavf[littleanarchysign]gmail[point]com. Koavf (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2017 (PST)

Thanks for the welcome! :) Life for me is somewhat disrupted, and will probably be so for some time in the future too. If you wish to chat off-wiki, can you fire the first salvo!? My e-mail starts with my WikiIndex username - hyphenated lower-case - before that fancy hay sign, followed by 'ukhome' (no quotes), then a full stop, finished by something commercial fishermen catch their haul in. :) Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 16:29, 22 January 2017 (PST)

Agreed! Koavf (talk) 23:05, 31 January 2017 (PST)

Activity tag

In this revert You are arguing, that " just because I might not edit for a while, doesn't mean I can't 'sysop!!".

 I've recently been 'promoted' to an {{tag|Active administrators of this wiki|administrator}} 

was never a logically correct sentence anyway. You can be promoted to Admin. If(!) You are getting active, then You are an active admin. One can not promote You towards 'active admin'. And, since You explicitly declared Yourself as inactive that time, it was only consequent to remove this tag. The purpose of this tag is, to collect active admins in this cat: Category:Active administrators of this wiki so one knows to whom to turn in case one needs their help. To turn to You around that time of Your hiatus, was obviously futile. So I removed this tag in service of the help-searchers. I did not do that with other admins, because they did not explicitly declare their inactivity since I was there. I did not declare You might not be admin any more, like Koavf did in this edit which was certainly inappropriate. I knew, that You where gone but not demoted. --Manorainjan 06:55, 24 January 2017 (PST)

Manorainjan – will you EVER learn? Just STOP poking your nose into issues which are NOT your responsibility? And also, stop being the school-boy grass. Your behaviour is NOT welcome here on WikiIndex, in just the same way you are not wanted on other wiki sites due to your aggressive and confrontational behaviour. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 09:32, 24 January 2017 (PST)

So, again, to the matter itself You did not find any answer. Therefore again You resort to 'arguments' of the type of wp:Ad hominem --Manorainjan 09:38, 24 January 2017 (PST)

Manor, for the love of Pete, stop provoking people. We're all sick and tired of your pugnacious behavior. --This is MY book, and I'm gonna READ IT!!! 09:48, 24 January 2017 (PST)

Email?

Hey Hoof, is it ok if I send you an email? It's kinda important. --This is MY book, and I'm gonna READ IT!!! 08:24, 25 January 2017 (PST)

Sure, can you work it out from my description above at #Welcome back!?? Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 17:21, 25 January 2017 (PST)

About your message

Hello, Hoof Hearted. The reason why I did these redirect is simple: those wikis never existed. They were invented by User:Jason. I was around on the wikisphere on May/June 2015 - even if I wasn't editing here - and I saw how the users from Rex Wikia wanted to fork the wiki to Rex.wiki, but they never did it actually. I know how we treat dead wikis here. I hope it's not a problem if I don't undo the redirects, but it's obvious that you can do it yourself if needed. Best regards :-) --TheTVFan (talk) 04:41, 28 January 2017 (PST)

OK, if they never actually existed, then there is no need to undo the redirect. I trust you are aware of the Category:in preparation status for wiki that are being created, but not yet launched?

Oh, just for future info, we prefer to keep a specific talk page topic on the same page - so if I start a message on your talk page, please answer on your talk page. It will be added to my watchlist, so I will be able to keep track of when you answer! :-P Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 04:57, 28 January 2017 (PST)

Thank you for your reply. I wrote my reply on your talk page only because it's a typical habit on Wikipedia and Wikia :-) Also, can you remove the protection from my talk page? I asked for it when I temporary left this wiki. About the category, I was not aware of it. It's good to know about it! Regards, --TheTVFan (talk) 05:24, 28 January 2017 (PST)

Talk page and user page now unprotected, but still restricted registered users only, ie, no IP address editing. Hope that is OK for you? Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 05:35, 28 January 2017 (PST)

Yes, it's okay. Thanks. --TheTVFan (talk) 05:42, 28 January 2017 (PST)

What's happening?

Hello. I'm asking this question you because you are very active. On the bottom of every page, when I edit, this error appears: "Expansion depth limit exceeded" - "This is not a free wiki hosting site". It is repeated about 50 times. Do you know what the problem is? :-) --TheTVFan (talk) 09:25, 2 February 2017 (PST)

Expansion depth See here. Not sure why it's happening to you--are you transcluding lots of pages or templates. Koavf (talk) 09:42, 2 February 2017 (PST)

Koavf, thank you for your reply. It does not happen when I'm editing templates, but on simple pages. See this screenshot, which clarifies the section in which the message appears. I think it's a system bug. Also, what's happening on this page? Best, --TheTVFan (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2017 (PST)

Templates Initially, I wrote "The problem isn't editing templates as such but using excessive templates in any namespace (including transcluding too many templates into a template--that happens sometimes). Can you show me a page on the wiki which has this problem now? I did a search but could not see any." Then I looked down! It looks like there is a problem with MediaWiki:Edittools. I'm investigating now... Regarding that page, I have no clue what's going on--I may need to export it as XML to even view it properly. I asked Brandon about it awhile ago but didn't get a response--he is too preoccupied to help here. Koavf (talk) 11:46, 2 February 2017 (PST)

Indeed, I didn't understand what you meant before. As of now, I don't see the expansion depth problem anymore. Thanks for solving it. --TheTVFan (talk) 12:50, 2 February 2017 (PST)

Wiki template

Hi, could you please un-protect the Wiki template so I can add a "founded date" section to it real quick? Thanks! --Queen Princess Vizier Countess Jello 09:18, 3 March 2017 (PST)

This sounds like a good idea but it would be really helpful if it automatically categorized a page in the FoundedInXXXX category scheme. That will take a little doing. Let me see if I can configure it (unless Sean wants to or if you have the code handy). Koavf (talk) 12:03, 3 March 2017 (PST)

ye i have the code to do that I just need the template unlocked. --Queen Princess Vizier Countess Jello 13:57, 4 March 2017 (PST)

Give it a shot. If you can make it auto-categorizing, that's helpful. The entire thing needs an overhaul but it's a bigger job than I can do this weekend. Koavf (talk) 16:51, 4 March 2017 (PST)

privileges removed

Hi Hoof Hearted, you should really also remove my privilege as a checkuser. That's the scary group assignment. Thanks and cheers --[[kgh]] (talk) 00:06, 30 April 2017 (PDT)

Make me happy :-)

Hi Sean, I have seen several edits from you that have warmed my heart! Appreciate your efforts here. Best, MarkDilley

You are most welcome! :-) Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 12:09, 5 May 2017 (PDT)

Take a look at my last two contribs

Since they are relevant to you. Don't want to be too stealthy about editing your edits. Koavf (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2017 (PDT)

'Tis late here in Blighty! Thanks ;-) Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 17:39, 24 May 2017 (PDT)

Template

Have You seen this? http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Template:Documentation&action=history --Manorainjan 05:44, 25 May 2017 (PDT)

No, but thank you for the heads up. Much appreciated :-) Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 13:19, 26 May 2017 (PDT)

Question

Hi Sean, why remove this, just curious? Best, Mark

That was from the IP which Koavf blocked. Their edit was meaningless cruft. Best, Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 17:09, 26 May 2017 (PDT)

Configuration Problems

Hi Hoof Hearted,

I'd like to take a look at what's up with the configuration problems that you mentioned on Mark's talk page. Will you provide me a few specific examples I can replicate to help me troubleshoot?

Best, BrandonCsSanders (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2017 (PDT)

Deletion of My User Pages

Hi, I'd like to know exactly why you think my user pages are "spam" or "vanity"? My user page only consisted of the header that I use in all the wikis where I edit (for example in Wikimedia) and the boxes babel, I had never happened this in any other project. I think this is a mistake and I hope you can reconsider this. Regards. —Alvaro Molina (✉ - ✔) 07:07, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Hello, we have no objection to folks having user pages here on WikiIndex, but we have certain requirements. Those being that said user is (or has been) a regular contributor to this WikiIndex wiki, and / or that user is notable in other areas of the Wikisphere. You have clearly failed on the first issue, because apart from adding your own user page, and creating a blank user talk page (the latter is against our agreed standards - blank pages should be red links), you have yet to edit any other part of our wiki. Secondly, I don't see how you are notable. If I have missed something on the latter, please advise me - maybe you are a MediaWiki developer, or a global Wikimedia bureaucrat, or similar. Why don't you dive in here and start editing and contributing? Best regards. --Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 07:46, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Hi, at some point I intend to contribute, especially here since I am also active contributor of that wiki. Here you can see my global contributions in Wikimedia and Miraheze. On the other hand, it seems excessive to me that you have protected at administrator level my user page and discussion as if it were a spammer or vandal. —Alvaro Molina (✉ - ✔) 08:42, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

As You can see here, Alvaro has confirmed this identity: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AlvaroMolina#WikiIndex --Manorainjan 08:29, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

I did not know about "certain requirements" that we have here and which contradict content like user boxes. Please point me to the requisite policy page. --Manorainjan 08:33, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

You may have a look at his global wikimedia account information which reveals 47.ooo edits on a good number of wikis. --Manorainjan 08:39, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

OK, thanks both. AlvaroMolina, thanks for updating me. And apologies for the 'terms' used when I deleted your pages (I will need to amend the relevant MediaWiki pages to include less inflammatory options). Appreciate the extra information you now provided, and I will restore your user page. It would help greatfuly if you could include those links to your Miraheze and Wikimedia contributions, etc. In my defence, after I initially deleted your pages, I hope you can respect my position that it could be seen as bad form to simply re-create deleted pages exactly the same as they previously were. I'm sure that would raise suspicions and questions on other wikis, especially WMF wikis. But we all make mistakes occasionally - live and learn is one of my mottos - and please do ask myself or any other sysop for advice on how WikiIndex works. Welcome aboard - and I look forward to your valued contributions here on WikiIndex.  :-))) --Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 09:14, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Manorainjan, appreciate your help and assistance too. I trust you agree with my explanations above. Best. :-P --Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 09:14, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Thanks for unprotecting and restoring my pages, I accept your apologies; just as clarification, if you look fine I had not exactly recreated my user page and discussion as the first time. On the other hand, Koavf knows me on Wikimedia projects and surely could also confirm my good intentions here. Regards. —Alvaro Molina (✉ - ✔) 09:24, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Looking at the history of the now undeleted user page I would not know why one would even think of deleting it. In case I would have witnessed those edits, I'd rather ask the user if he needs some help, why he deleted his introductory sentence and if he can provide some links to his WP accounts. But I imagine, Alvaro has seen worth misunderstandings and is not lasting deterred. ;-) --Manorainjan 09:38, 27 September 2017 (PDT)

Voluptious domains?

http://wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Boobpedia&diff=next&oldid=190146 Domains und TLDs do not have capital letters. One can write a domein using caps into the address line, but that will be translated to lower case from the browser before it gets sent. It does not make a difference. Hence it is a mere waste of time to edit it. --Manorainjan 18:05, 30 September 2017 (PDT)

Domain names are case-insensitive. It often makes things more readable to have CamelCase in domain names. Jan Steinman (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Says who? --Manorainjan 04:00, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Sorry, forgot to log in. Old data about dynamic IPs says nothing about the current assignee of that IP. Jan Steinman (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

wp:Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies --Manorainjan 05:33, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Thank you Jan Steinman - you are exactly correct. Some folks call it CamelCase, others call it LinkLanguage - all I know is that it vastly helps to improve readability of URLs. The fact that all modern browsers are able to render such URLs perfectly okay is a good reason to continue with making URLs easy to read. Thanks for your support Jan.

modern browsers are able to render such URLs Minor nit: browsers don't care, and indeed, they should not mess with URL case at all, except to parse off the domain name and pass it off to its Domain Name Server, which is responsible for case folding and returning an IP address. The portion of the URL after the domain name may be case sensitive, depending on the HTTP server. UNIX/Linux usually is, Windows certainly not. Jan Steinman (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Manorainjan – why is it your concern with how I edit? I shall answer that for you: providing my edits do not break the wiki, and are constructive – you have NO right to tell me how to edit this wiki. And the same for everyone else who edits here – just keep your irritating questioning to yourself Manor! Furthermore, what business do you have with snooping for personal details on others IP addresses – especially when they edit constructively? Again, the answer is none. Please refrain from posting 'whois' type of searches here on WikiIndex, unless said IP is wreaking havoc by spamming. Best regards to all. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 09:42, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Path For a reason I titled 'Voluptious domains' and not Voluptious URL/URIs. The path is out of question. --Manorainjan 11:35, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Personal data?

One can have "personal details" on an IP address? Is this not exactly the opposite of what Jan Steinman just wrote? --Manorainjan 09:49, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

As long as what Jan Steinman wrote was honest and constructive – YOU, Manorainjan have NO right posting personal data here on WikiIndex. Back off with your interfering, and take this as a WARNING – any repeat behaviour from you will result in a block. Please do not let me have to take such actions. Peace. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 10:10, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

What is the personal data which I had posted? I absolutely deny Your claim that I posted personal data about Jan. --Manorainjan 10:26, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Don't try and play the 'innocent' with me. You know exactly what personal info you posted. Last warning. Please STOP rocking the boat. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 10:36, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

So, again You want to conceal Your inability to substantiate Your false claims against me by misusing Your admin powers? Like in the case of the wiki page about Corey Shields and the so called copyright violation regarding my design of the WikiIndex logo? Quite a habit! --Manorainjan 10:41, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Thanks for the GreatFeature plug on my page

It's an extension I picked up somewhere called RandomImage.php. Let me know if you want more info about it. My wiki is ancient, and I don't know if it will still work with the current MediaWiki. :-) Jan Steinman (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2017 (PDT)

You are most welcome for the plug. I have seen the RandomImage tool used on other wikis – but the effect on the front page of your wiki is extremely effective. Your eco-village looks amazing – I wish I could join you all!! I so miss Canada. :-/ Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 09:48, 4 October 2017 (PDT)

Removing Arabic

Was this an accident? Why did you remove the welcome message for Arabic? Koavf (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2017 (PST)

Not an accident. I removed the Arabic script because its presence was causing issues when editing – it was trying to force right-to-left reading – which is fine in an all-arabic script page, but is unacceptable on pages of overwhelming roman script language. Its presence was, when editing, incorrectly deleting unintended text. Thankfully, I nearly always preview before saving, and noticed its effects. But it took me about 8 previews before I realised (a) the pattern of effect, and then (b) the cause. As soon as I deleted the Arabic script (and saved it), the editing problem vanished.

I am personally not comfortable with the excessive proliferation of languages here on WikiIndex – for a number of issues, and especially so with the actual method we are using. We should go back to basics, and let the long-established and well-proven methods carry out translation – online translation services from the likes of Google and Bing work fantastic, and there are other services such as translatewiki.net for when permanent translations are required. Best. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 11:21, 17 November 2017 (PST)

Thanks--I figured that there was some good reason why. I have used an HTML5 solution--please tell me if it's working, as I did not see the same problems that you saw with deleted text. Koavf (talk) 11:31, 17 November 2017 (PST)

The bdi hack seems to have fixed the issue – great find. For info, the problem was occurring when using Opera browser, on Android, Mac, and Win. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 05:31, 18 November 2017 (PST)

WikiIndex:Community portal/News

I changed the protection so that other users can edit and add news. I haven't seen many problems with this page being vandalized, so I appreciate you being proactive but I feel like this is actually bad for community. Koavf (talk) 08:15, 6 December 2017 (PST)

The specific news sub-page has always previously been for sysops to announce WikiIndex-only changes, or subjects of interests. WikiIndex talk:Community portal was the specific page where all WikiIndex editors, even IP editors post and discuss wider wikisphere interests. Allowing anyone to post anything in the news section is diluting the meaning of the news page - especially so when we allow errant editors (who have clearly upset MANY other wiki communities) to be so prominent - I strongly feel that that is bad for our diminished community! There are certain specific wiki pages which are sacrosanct, and our news page should be one of them!

The last entry was over 2 years ago. What was there to be diluted? Noting! No news at all. --Manorainjan 08:54, 6 December 2017 (PST)

And respectfully, it would have been appropriate for you to discuss with me BEFORE reverting fellow sysop actions! Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 08:29, 6 December 2017 (PST)

That's sensible to me. If anything, someone can post on its talk page. Thanks, Sean. Koavf (talk) 09:42, 6 December 2017 (PST)

It seems like SMW never really caught on

I tried it once, ran into some bugs, reached out to the community, and no one seemed to really care, so I figured it wasn't all that well-supported.

I've submitted patches in the past for open-source software, and found that it can be hard to get them merged in if you're an outsider.

Anyway, Wikimedia went in the direction of Wikidata, but doesn't seem to have really leveraged its full potential yet. Leucosticte (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2017 (PST)

I think the reason SMW didn't gain much traction and reach out to a wider audience is probably two-fold. First, it was never supported by Wikimedia Foundation - which sorta pushed SMW onto the ropes before it even got out of its corner; second, SMW is actually quite a difficult and unforgiving bunch of software. Whilst I understand the fundamental principles of SMW, and understand its very real value of enabling wikis into highly structured data, I think that marrying SMW to MediaWiki would cause severe problems. Not in compatibility, more so because MediaWiki is just so easy for even the most illiterate software users to grasp, whereas SMW probably requires a degree in computer programming to get the best out of it! I think had the proposed MediaWiki Foundation (the one for specific independent MW users) taken off, there could have been a real opportunity for SMW.org to merge, or at least form a much closer partnership with MWF. And there is real need for advanced data handling in wikis - the business world are turning to the likes of Socialtext (which combines wiki with advanced social networking, high level data handling and spreadsheet functions) or EditMe (similar to Socialtext, without the strong emphasis on social networking, but concentrating on data, spreadsheet and CMS).

Wikidata is strange. It is capable of comprehensive data, but it isn't structured in orthodox formats of relational databases, nor even the lesser data handling features of spreadsheets. The quality of data is at the peril of Wikipedia editors - some data is well referenced, but an awful lot is general info sourced from quite literally anywhere on the 'net. One example is when Wikidata is relying on IMDb for referencing - yet IMDb is exactly like Wikipedia - user-generated content (usually fandom) - and so can not be consistently relied upon.

All that aside, you are still very welcome here. Sean, aka Hoof Hearted • _{Admin / 'Crat} • talk2HH 00:55, 12 December 2017 (PST)

I still run into the question of, if we're going to tone down the vanity and edgy content, then what's left? Vanity and edgy content is usually what's most fun and interesting. That's where all the personality and drama are. Otherwise, it's like, "Okay, we'll put a few statistics here for each wiki, and add each wiki to a few categories, and call it a day."

You have a bureaucrat here who's from RationalWiki, and they always have to try to look good to their fellow RationalWikians by trying to suppress anyone they view as a crackpot or crank or whatever. I think what happened was that everyone started taking themselves (and their wikis) way too seriously in the wikisphere. Wikis are mostly about (1) fandom and (2) scientific/technical documentation of some kind or another.

In both cases, what people are doing is a little bit absurd. Technical documentation created by the wiki process will usually be incomplete and presented in an inconsistent way, due to the fact that the documentation has been left to the community, without much active direction by any one editor-in-chief whose job is to standardize everything. Even a site like MediaWiki.org doesn't really escape from the pervasive tendency toward fandom that affects all wikis. For example, there are a lot of unusual MediaWiki extensions listed there, since anyone can list whatever extension they want. Eccentricity is part of the charm of wikis, though.

As for the fandom, there's also an element of absurdity there, because people will take a seemingly frivolous topic and document it in a serious way, down to the smallest detail, and even cover every possible way of looking at minor ambiguities. So for example, they'll analyze the meaning of various minor events in Christian Weston Chandler's life, and correlate them together into various trends.

Then there are these supposedly lighthearted wikis (like RationalWiki, when it first started) where they say, "Let's make fun of all these nutjobs." Yet in doing this, they take themselves very seriously because they want to present a contrast between themselves (who are probably very weird, as we all are; some just keep it hidden better than others) and these weirdos they're documenting and mocking. In a way, they're taking a cowardly path by trying to be so "normal" because the easiest way to never err, or never look foolish, is just to conform to those around you. But progress comes from being a nonconformist and taking some risks. Anyway, they have to purge anyone who would give them a bad reputation, because they and their wiki are just so gosh darn important and it would be a shame to waste all that credibility they've built up.

On wikis like that, people will get into fights and take strong positions about stuff that, in reality, they could be wrong about. For example, if you read Hitler's Mein Kampf, there's quite a lot of stuff in there that's plausible. Can't say that on a site like RW, though. And probably you couldn't say it on, say, your Wikipedia userpage either. Wikipedia has to keep bringing in those donations by avoiding controversies that will lead to negative media coverage. After all, when it comes down to it, Wikimedia has a lot to hide. They have a lot of money, yet they keep begging for more, and they waste it on big salaries for unnecessary staff. It's actually pretty scandalous, but the media doesn't call them out on it because Wikimedia is mostly pretty aligned with the left-of-center mainstream media bias. (Wikimedia is also pretty well aligned with the values of its Silicon Valley funders, most notably Google.)

The way that Wikipedia arbitrators operate is like a corporate HR department -- increasingly, they speak in a dehumanized legalese and shroud their decision-making process in as much secrecy as possible. Also, just like in a major corporation, the elections are pretty meaningless to the average plebe. If you own a few shares of stock in a company, and you get a proxy to vote on, do you really know who any of these board member candidates are, or have any idea which ones would be best to elect? These arbitrator candidates are pretty obscure too. And at any rate, a lot of the more interesting users, who might have been agents of change by running for ArbCom, have been banned and therefore aren't eligible to run. Or they quit the project in disgust after they get burnt out.

Being "welcome" is a fuzzy concept sometimes. I've been told point-blank that I'm not welcome on any Wikimedia site. Yet, sometimes after I get unmasked (aka checkusered) and kicked off again, someone will say that I should try to get right with Wikimedia so I can come back. If they were going to be strict about saying that I'm unwelcome there, they should tell that user, "Don't encourage him." Maybe they just happen to know that what people say to me won't have much effect on me, so they don't even bother to tell anyone, "Don't encourage him."

It's a little like rape, actually. On a politically correct site like RationalWiki, or even in the libertarian movement, people will say that rape is a very black-and-white concept. I've come to view it as more of a fuzzy or even, in some cases, meaningless concept. A girl says that she was too drunk to consent. There's no breathalyzer record; nobody knows what her exact BAC was. (And even if we did know what it was, the law doesn't specify what level of intoxication makes her unable to consent.) Was it rape, or no? That's for a jury to decide. If they don't like the defendant, maybe they'll decide he raped her. Heck, even her own perceptions of whether she was raped are probably colored by her perceptions of the guy.

We have all these women coming out of the woodwork now saying that they were sexually harassed. Was it bothering them all that time, or did it just start bothering them now? Or, was their perception conditioned on how events unfolded? E.g., they might have interpreted it as something other than harassment, until a bunch of other women started coming forward and saying these kinds of incidents were harassment?

One thing I do know, is that women get excited by guys who are willing to cross boundaries into being inappropriate. They like the guy who will bang them in some public place where they might get caught, for instance. They like the guy who keeps going even after they say "stop". They like the guy who gets them drunk at the bar and then takes them home and ravishes them. (That was the whole point of showing up at an establishment where alcoholic beverages are served, wearing an outfit that reveals about 90 percent of her body.) They like the guy who's a little bit of a rebel, and breaks a few rules. There's a little bit of that primal instinct in young women that makes them just want to be violently taken, the way they were before civilization existed. It's like riding a roller coaster; there's a thrill in the loss of control.

There are plenty of guys who wouldn't do any of that stuff. A lot of times, the hot girls reject those guys as too boring. I think there are some women who were in the Miss Universe Pageant who now are saying that Trump objectified them. Uh, ladies, it's a beauty pageant. Are you going to throw a steak in front of a dog and then complain, "Hey, he was just supposed to look at it, not eat it"? Maybe they should've brought a chaperone, but that would've been no fun, because then they wouldn't have had some billionaire grabbing them by the ... well anyway. Leucosticte (talk) 02:03, 12 December 2017 (PST)

Why is it a prosaic conversation involving you which has nothing to do with genocide or sexual assault ends up with you appealing to them? Have you ever considered that maybe—maybe—that is why you are unwelcome some places? Koavf (talk) 09:55, 12 December 2017 (PST)

I think leftists do that all the time. Feminists will compare everything to rape, and Jews will compare everything to the Holocaust (because they have the privilege of being exempted from Godwin's law, since their people were actually subjected to the original Holocaust, which would make it antisemitic to object to their bringing it up, since we have to keep the memory fresh and always say 'never again' and be vigilant about anything that might resemble Nazism to keep it from re-occuring).

People who ask questions that others don't want asked are unwelcome. People who present information or ideas that conflict with the narrative people are trying to present are unwelcome.

Why was The Daily Stormer kicked off the normie web? Why do people condone DDoS attacks against them (the same way they condone punching Richard Spencer in the face)? Because, if someone stands there and presents an argument for why it's okay to harm someone, that's considered almost equivalent to actually harming them, and therefore people think censorship (in the case of DDoS attacks, basically the heckler's veto) and violence are appropriate in response.

What is The Daily Stormer? Mostly a comedy site. Are they cool with James Fields running over a bunch of people in Charlottesville? Some of them probably are. But, when it was a normie web site, there probably were a few more moderate people hanging out too. We can expect that when it's pushed into Tor-land, it's probably going to become more extreme, plus there's less transparency; the public is not going to be able to as easily directly monitor what they're up to, unless they go out of their way to get onto Tor and take a look. The whole point of pushing the site onto Tor was to make it harder for people to access.

What was ChildPorn.info? A site consisting of info about legislation, case law, and academicians. (See the list of articles.) The WikiIndex entry had to be deleted, though, because ... why? Because at that time there was a general purge of entries on childlove-related wikis, and certain "vanity" pages. Well, okay, but then WikiIndex is no longer seeking to be a comprehensive and unbiased directory. One would have to list these forbidden sites somewhere else. It's now necessary to have at least two directories (one for the politically correct content, and another for the non-politically correct content) rather than just one directory.

My guess is that the second directory would be interesting, but of course there has to be someone to set it up and run it, and that doesn't always happen. For one thing, the dissidents don't always get along with one another. For example, Andrew Anglin doesn't like having to be on the same Torweb that pedos use.

Progress often comes from being edgy. To think clearly, sometimes you have to take ideas to their logical conclusions. Get rid of the radical dissidents, and you get rid of a lot of people who are in the habit of going outside the Overton window to see what are ALL the possible implications of a certain way of thinking.

So, we all end up retreating back to whatever wikis favor our own viewpoints, and we preach to the choir rather than having a real discourse between opposing views. Because of course, a real debate, with actual opponents who are there to counter-argue against your counter-arguments, is dangerous. When you just have a wiki where you say, "They guys say x, but that's silly because y," then you don't have to worry about them showing up and saying, "But what about z?" That way, you can win every argument.

We have a system now where, if you want to speak freely about ideas that are outside the Overton window, you basically have to sacrifice your whole life to do it. Andrew Anglin has to keep his location hidden so that he doesn't get served with lawsuits. Others have had SJWs call up their workplace and get them fired from jobs. So, the dissidents end up retreating even further, to wikis, Discord servers, etc. that aren't even known to the general public. I probably spend about half or two-thirds of my time on a non-public wiki that isn't listed on WikiIndex and never will be. The owner of it has it set up that way so that he can continue working at a corporate job and earning six figures and living in the suburbs with his wife and kid. It's that "Nazi next door" phenomenon, except unlike Tony Hovater, he's going to try to stay out of the New York Times.

Part of the appeal of Nazism was that the left had gotten so bad, that fascism didn't seem like an unreasonable alternative. They are, at least, more honest about what they want. They don't talk about a fake "equality" that can never exist. They actually say that they're out for supremacy. It's a little refreshing to not have to deal with all this intellectually dishonest, hypocritical sanctimony. If there's going to be oppression and domination of the weak by the strong, then we might as well call it what it is, rather than saying, "Oh, we have to suppress some counter-revolutionaries so we can protect the public and advance toward a better society." That argument only works if the commies are, actually, improving society. Leucosticte (talk) 16:59, 12 December 2017 (PST)