User talk:Abd

Welcome to WikiIndex! We hope you will contribute much and well. You will probably want to read the help pages. Again, welcome and have fun! Koavf (talk) 21:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Disclosure

I came to Wikiindex because I was pointed here by Leucosticte. However, I'm not his meat puppet. I do not approve of his description of Nathania, as an example. Leucosticte is, however, not a pedophile, has not been charged with any sex crimes, but is a radical libertarian who tends to take up highly unpopular causes, in the name of freedom, and then he will present what are often rational arguments to be considered. He then appears to be advocating the cause.

Those attacking him here will continue unless stopped. They are truly fanatic, and they will attack anyone who simply tries to stop the attacks. On RationalWiki, for simply pointing out fact, with evidence, I was told to rape my kids. And I do have children, lots of them. And I'm in regular contact with the Department of Children and Families. The extremists within the anti-pedophilia movement openly state that "pedophiles" should be castrated, violently tortured and killed, and so should anyone who supports or defends them.

Nathan is right about one thing. Hysteria about this issue is rampant. It is obvious that some deep buttons are being pushed.

The question here is whether or not wikis regarding issues and containing advocacy that is widely considered horrific, inhuman, repulsive, something to be stamped out, should be covered here. And if so, how should they be handled? I'm obviously new here; however, I have long been interested in and involved in the wiki movement, I started my first wiki about a dozen years ago, and was on-line with the W.E.L.L in the 1980s. I do not necessarily have easy answers.

Whatever I'm doing here, I will stop doing on the request of any established editor, and would then consult site administration before proceeding.

The vandals and trolls (who may think of themselves as "defending children," but they are not, they are acting out their own hysteria, berserking) will attack, and it can be predicted to increase. That could be stopped by banning Leucosticte, but that would set a very poor precedent. Some of Leucosticte's work here may be unnecessarily provocative. He can be regulated. He is likely to respect that.

It is unclear to what extent WikiIndex wants to allow site criticisms and hostile tagging. I'm watching and hopefully learning. --Abd (talk) 14:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

What RONR has to say about attacking a member's motives

"REFRAINING FROM ATTACKING A MEMBER'S MOTIVES. When a question is pending, a member can condemn the nature or likely consequences of the proposed measure in strong terms, but he must avoid personalities, and under no circumstances can he attack or question the motives of another member. The measure, not the member, is the subject of debate." Leucosticte (talk) 08:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

What's the "measure"? RONR is formal process, and only allows one measure to be on the floor. However, when a series of measures are under consideration, the purpose of the series becomes relevant. RONR has means for summary resolution of certain kinds of disputes. As you know, that's often lacking on wikis. However, a basic principle is that, to be considered, a motion must be seconded. Motive, all the rest, is utterly irrelevant if there is no second.

If we are running a library, and we are offered a "special collection," the overarching purpose of the collection is quite relevant. If a collection consists only of materials added from a very specific and very personal point of view, that point of view, the collector's purpose, becomes important.

In the present cases, articles on wiki users are being created by someone who has specific interest in the users, often involved in conflict with the user, or frustrated that a debate was avoided. The information presented is highly selected, presenting a user with a complex history as if he could be reduced to a few highly selected snippets.

If the article is worth keeping, yes, the intention of the creator becomes irrelevant. But what I've begun to do is to examine a pattern of behavior, that will, if allowed to continue, foster, invite, and amplify disruption here.

It is not that it is impossible for this wiki to host "wiki criticism." It is that the structure here is not designed to handle it. Lecuosticte is acting outside of traditions here. The page on Category:Wiki People, which he attempted to change, has

this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community and their associations to various Wiki sites

Please add your name to this list by creating a new page for yourself.

There is nothing there about creating pages on others. It's been done for some highly notable people. Jimbo Wales, for example. Leucosticte created a page on me, Abd Lomax. It's not particularly offensive, though it points to a page that was intended to be so, from a dead wiki, with the material having been copied by Leucosticte to his wiki, RationalWikiWikiWiki, [1]. That page gives a warped history of my work, written from a pseudoskeptic RationalWikian perspective, where the primary goal of all RW work was maximized snark. It tells little about my real history, who I actually am, my accomplishments, what I'm known internationally for, though there is a hint about one small facet of my career.

Allowing such material opens a huge can of worms. Hosting controversial criticism of wikis was considered in the past, here, and no consensus was found. That's because it's a difficult problem. --Abd (talk) 17:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

"this is a list of people who consider themselves to be part of the wiki community" I'm sure that MZM, Nemo, etc. consider themselves ot be part of the wiki community. Therefore, they meet the criteria. Why don't YOU write an autobiography, if you want that other stuff to be included. Leucosticte (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

And I could do that, it's invited. Nathan, what is not invited?

The people express "considering themselves a part of of the wiki community" do so by creating the page. It is not just considering oneself a part, it is also consenting to there being a page here. Are you notifying the "wiki people" that you have created an article on them? Would MZMcBride want you to send him an email about that? What do you think he would do? Do you want to find out? I'm not notifying them because I've requested deletion of the page, making it moot, hopefully. I could drop a note on his meta talk page. What do you think would happen?

Hint: I've seen all this come down. I can't predict individual outcomes, but I certainly know what's possible as a result.

You are arguing endlessly, and your arguments are corrupt. You actually know better, if you'll stop to think this all the way through.

Instead, I suspect, you are setting things up for another wiki-Ragnarok.--Abd (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It's actually a trap they're on the verge of falling into. If they go on Meta and say "This guy created articles on WikiIndex as part of a vendetta against us" and get the rest of their cabal riled up about it, then I will have evidence that they assumed bad faith; and since that's a violation of wiki norms, they will all be banned from Meta, and the only people left on Meta will be those who are either neutral or supportive of me. Those good users will get me unblocked, because there will be no longer anyone around to oppose such an action.

With the bad users gone, Sanger's Law will cause the entire culture of the wiki to permanently change in revolutionary ways, becoming more tolerant and open to dissident viewpoints. It will begin to better fulfil its three stated purposes. All this has been planned out; I am several moves ahead of my opponents in my thinking and they can do nothing but the Template:W that have already been decreed. It's determinism in its most sublimely pure and beneficent form. Leucosticte (talk) 21:36, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I personally think, after reading this, that your presence at this wiki is a big joke at our and others expense. You seem to get a sort of delight at seeing Abd debate with you, while you have no real intention debating with him. You seemed to have sucked yourself unto this wiki and you are planning to suck it dry. Ever since I started adding wikis to wikiindex, I have noticed that you continiously change your wikipages, start debates on irrelevant issues and now you are creating biographies on users you may or may not be enemies with. In other words, you want people to notice you here and connect your presence to wikiindex. Why? Who cares. But the pattern is solid and that is all I care about. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 22:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you are waiting for likeminded minds to show up on this wiki. That would explain your passive-agressiveness. You probaly think that the moment you have two or three people supporting you, you can use this wiki as a portal for supporting your ideas? --Redgreenfourties (talk) 22:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Fascinating. Leucosticte, you have written that some of your wiki pages are parody, sarcasm. Maybe it's not just pages on your wikis. The prediction about meta went completely over the top. Redgreenfourties, you may be close to the truth here. Pleased to meet you. --Abd (talk) 23:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It would explain why a Danish-German Neonazi wanted to recruite me via a forum. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I was joking about that prediction of how things would play out at Meta. It was some mild escapism. (I say "mild" because I did successful restrain myself from including the original ending, in which I ride off into the sunset on a glittery unicorn. This compromise of the initial artistic vision was tough, but perhaps the scene will be restored in the director's cut.) Leucosticte (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Danish-German Neonazi

I am debating with Leucosticte and he is losing (I am getting upvotes), suddenly an anonymous person questions if I am German or French, I assume that the person is German, since the French wouldn't even whipe there asses with use, I make a bicycle-joke, I get a loud S.H. from the fellow, make a snarky remark and suddenly the person announces himself as a Danish-German Neonazi, who wants me to pick a forum where we can fight the "kinderschander" (written in German, not English) Leucosticte. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Other small points, he places on of his posts above posts directed at my comment with support signs and a few days later he changes my userpage in a harmless manner, by correcting my spelling. I posted a message on his talk page saying that I will give permission to someone if they want to alter my userpage. As of this postdate, he has not responded to this remark on his talk page. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel like I am being tested. Like someone is looking how I will react. I don't like it. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, this has happened a few times, that I've made a few minor corrections to someone's userpage and been told to back off. I guess I'll have to quit doing it, even though it's a wiki. Perhaps it's like walking onto someone's lawn to water a flower that seems to have wilted in the sun. The owner might have wanted the plant to live, but he wants even more for people to not trespass. Anyway, I have nothing to do with these other people you mention. Leucosticte (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

It is more like walking into someones backyard and removing all the shrubs and death leaves. When an aquintance does it, it's ok, but when a guy you barely know walks into your garden when your working in your house to clean up all the leaves, you wonder what there doing. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

He may have been a little offended at the delay in reply, though you did reply reasonably quickly.

Actually, Nathan, there could be a language problem here. The user here says that he said "he will give permission." I recall the post to your talk page as he said that he wanted to be asked first. It can indeed be seen as intrusive. Always ask. Sometimes I see something easy to correct, a single thing, and change it, and will then have an edit summary like "spelling. I hope this is okay. If not, my apologies and revert me." Mostly the Wikipedia guidelines on this say "Do not touch!"

I think he may have been a little offended that you did not reply. But I

I read the user page, with the jokes. Nice jokes. I look at it this way: that English is far, far better than my Dutch. And I appreciate it when those whose primary language is not English make an effort to communicate in English. --Abd (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

It is most likely more of a cultural thing, as of yet Leucosticte and I are not partners, so I would think it a sign of respect on his part to ask me if he wants to improve my spelling, that is all, no hard feelings. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict with above)Leucosticte is not trying to do you any harm, that's clear to me. The IP editors are trolling you.

• Where are you debating with Leucosticte?

• Now, what has happened on your user page is simple. There are hackers and activists on the internet dedicated to attacking sexual deviants, and the most popular target is "pedophiles." While child sexual abuse is a serious problem, these people are not actually involved with protecting children, they are full of hatred and are vicious (and there is real violence, people have been murdered on claims they were pedophiles.

• Leucosticte is, in fact, a long-time wiki user. He came here with information about wikis, though it was largely about his own (I have not looked at the balance, but it's okay for him to do that). Given the nature of what he hosts on his sites, the appearance that he presents, it is not surprising that he was attacked here. He is being targeted by at least two people, I think, and it may be more.

• One person, who registered an account, is a moderator at RationalWiki. I suspect some connection between her and the IP users, some form of communication between them elsewhere, but I have no proof of that, and it may be coincidence. Her behavior here was like her behavior at RationalWiki, which argues against her connection with the IP. Strange bedfellows. I think she was blocked here partly because of that IP activity, though it is likely not her.

• These activists lie, they libel, and activists like them have declared they are not concerned about collateral damage. They don't mind if a hundred "perverts" go to jail, having committed no crime, if one child is protected.

• Leudosticte is not a pedophile. He doesn't fit the definitions. He has no history of molesting children. He was in federal prison and was on parole for a completely different offense, and was under intense scrutiny.

• He writes about these things primarily as an extreme libertarian. He's definitely provocative, he seems to enjoy the fuss created. It's complicated.

• These IP users are after him. However, WikiIndex appears, to them, to be supporting him. So they are also threatening WikiIndex, and attacking administrators here, and, of course, me as well. And you are a new WikiIndex user, so they could also threaten you. It really isn't about you.

• WikiIndex needs to develop specific policies about both Leucosticte's work here (to avoid unnecessary provocation) and vandalism and trolling as has been coming from the IPs. Without the policy and clear procedure, response will be delayed and quite a mess can be created. I've documented the open proxy vandalism/trolling to support possible wiki responses. --Abd (talk) 00:41, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• The recent events are documented at User:Abd/Open proxy events/2014-03. The IPs which edited your talk page were, of course, noticed by me. They are using open proxies to conceal their location, at the same time as they accuse others of being cowards for refusing to debate with them. I'm a real person, I actually use the name Abd in daily life, and it's easy to find me. I have two small children (10 and 12), as well as five grown children and six grandchildren. --Abd (talk) 00:41, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

The page where I had the debate was Category talk:OptOut, but anyway if you can vouch for him, then I will not push the issue. --Redgreenfourties (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Trolls

Anyway, I got a message back from a German friend and he says your most likely being trolled by people from a Identitarian movement, or something similar to them. Many of them are dedicicated pedohunters. Ill post a link: [2].

Maybe. There were some hints in the edits. It would take too much time to track them down, and it doesn't really matter who they are. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 18:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)