Talk:Brongersma

The index page refers to Wikipedia for information about the subject of the wiki. It has this about Brongersma: "He was primarily known as a defender of the rights of paedophiles and an advocate of more lax legislation on public morality."

The article is largely unsourced, and the statement "primarily known" is a judgment, an opinion. It's a sign of editorial bias. To the person writing that lede, Brongersma was of interest, very likely, because of that idea, not because of his other accomplishments. However, was he a defender of "the rights of pedophiles"? Was he a pedophile? Not by the definition of pedophile. Brongersma was originally convicted of having homosexual relations with a 17-year-old "boy," at the time, in the Netherlands, the age of consent for homosexual relations was 21, higher than for heterosexual relations. The age of consent for both was lowered to 16 by subsequent legislation. Pedophilia generally means a sexual preference for prepubescent children.

The word "pedophile" is inflammatory, conjuring up images of a sexual predator, and young children. It's a complex issue, and difficult to address.

I am by no means expert on Brongersma, and have only looked to the extent that I have because of this listing (and I looked much earlier this year, and added that Wikipedia reference.) I don't wish to see WikiIndex get embroiled in disputes over "pedophilia." The topic makes people crazy.

The issues raised by Brongersma, though, are boundary issues. What is the "age of consent"? In many societies, chronological age does not matter, puberty matters. Around the world, according to Wikipedia, the age of consent varies from 14 to 18 in most jurisdictions. Brongersma, then, can easily be seen (and apparently saw himself) as an advocate of lowering the age of consent, which can then be seen as advocacy for the rights of young adults. This is not, however, "pedophilia," generally restricted to a sexual preference for age 11 or younger. Brongersma may also be seen as an advocate for the rights of homosexuals, since, had the person in question with his conviction been female, he would not have violated the law.

There is another issue that requires general consensus: should wikis that are not generally open for editing be listed by WikiIndex? If an individual uses wiki software, does this make the web site a "wiki"? I see no registration link for Brongersma. All edits that I saw, in a quick review, were by "Admin." However, any web site on the related topics is likely to be under heavy attack. We saw that WikiIndex was under attack because of Leucosticte's participation here, and the attack on this page was almost certainly due to the tracking of Leucosticte, seen on RationalWiki, by some, and in some other places, as an advocate for "raping kids." See [1].

On the one hand, Leucosticte has been trolling for this response. On the other, WikiIndex has a mission. I suggest we follow the mission. I linked to the Wikipedia article because it is relatively neutral. I avoided adding clarification because I do not want to create a debate here over the definition of pedophilia. RationalWiki was nearly torn apart by that debate, stimulated by Leucosticte, between many who wanted to stand for free speech, and others who could not tolerate the presence of a "child rapist," even though Leucosticte has never been charged with any child-sexual offense, is clearly not a pedophile (from extensive writing about his own sexuality), but described fantasies, fantasies that, from objective research in the field, are not uncommon. (Which does not establish norms. It might be common to fantasize murdering your boss, it would not make it right!) --Abd (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget what Louis Brandeis wrote, "Every denunciation of existing law tends in some measure to increase the probability that there will be violation of it." If you say "This law is wrong, because the behavior it proscribes is harmless and ethically acceptable" then it could make people think, "Why shouldn't I violate it, then, if I think I can find a way to get away with it?" Denouncing a law tends to make that law less popular, and there's often less stigma attached to breaking an unpopular law. Where there's less stigma for lawbreaking, there may be more lawbreaking. Leucosticte (talk) 20:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)