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User talk:Lumenos: Difference between revisions
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Thanks for helping in the debate, I'm sorry I can't stop them getting at you as well because if I try they'll say I'm using admin status in a case that involves me. Usually this is a polite wiki but it is deteriorating rapidly and unless things improve they can look for someone else to look after the wiki. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:39, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | Thanks for helping in the debate, I'm sorry I can't stop them getting at you as well because if I try they'll say I'm using admin status in a case that involves me. Usually this is a polite wiki but it is deteriorating rapidly and unless things improve they can look for someone else to look after the wiki. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:39, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:I have no issue with Lumenos; I am merely pointing out that you are not being attacked by zombie computers. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 15:46, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :I have no issue with Lumenos; I am merely pointing out that you are not being attacked by zombie computers. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 15:46, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::I should add that I like you too Phantom Hoover, even though you have apparently claimed to be "[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dude a dude]" and [[Talk:RationalWiki# | ::I should add that I like you too Phantom Hoover, even though you have apparently claimed to be "[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dude a dude]" and [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)#Edit wars|I am critical of a number of your arguments]] as well. :-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 02:37, 31 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:I'm not sure what this is about. If this is in reference to the policy page, I'm not worried about my privacy. If this is about the edits to the RationalWiki article, I didn't post my edits intending them to be set in stone. When I came back and looked at the waring over that article I wondered if you weren't defending me or maybe following that etiquette policy? I don't think you should block people over that, at least not until we write some [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines|policies]] that have community support. Otherwise who is to say what is trolling, vandalism, or unwarranted blocking in a case like that? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :I'm not sure what this is about. If this is in reference to the policy page, I'm not worried about my privacy. If this is about the edits to the RationalWiki article, I didn't post my edits intending them to be set in stone. When I came back and looked at the waring over that article I wondered if you weren't defending me or maybe following that etiquette policy? I don't think you should block people over that, at least not until we write some [[WikiIndex:Policies_and_Guidelines|policies]] that have community support. Otherwise who is to say what is trolling, vandalism, or unwarranted blocking in a case like that? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Proxima, I forgot to say that you are welcome for my help with the debate. I don't know if it means anything to you but my "critical" comments don't change the fact that I like you. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:14, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :Proxima, I forgot to say that you are welcome for my help with the debate. I don't know if it means anything to you but my "critical" comments don't change the fact that I like you. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:14, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
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==Reordering talk page comments== | ==Reordering talk page comments== | ||
You have just made [[Talk:RationalWiki]] impossible to follow. Please stop doing that. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 03:06, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | You have just made [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)]] impossible to follow. Please stop doing that. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 03:06, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:'''''[For others who are reading this, I believe Nx is referring to the dialog beginning with the [[Talk:RationalWiki# | :'''''[For others who are reading this, I believe Nx is referring to the dialog beginning with the [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)#Similar wikis|Similar Wikis "debate map"]] that I and Nx created on that talk page (although he is presently acting as though he was unaware of this) and subsequent "mass quoting" to which Nx expressed no objections that I remember. Bob is also apparently acting as if he is unaware of this, thus prompting me to create this clarification notice. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 05:36, 4 September 2009 (EDT)''''' You could reorder it. I thank you for helping by posting that message showing that I had moved something that seemed off-topic, in my view. My ideal is something I call a [http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Wikiforum wikiforum]. Isn't there are way we can create debate maps, and remove dated or otherwise irrelevant information? I suggested a separate article for criticism and Proxima stated that she would prefer this to the "no criticism" approach. Are you open to the idea of someone linking or posting any criticism that you may not agree with? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:00, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::Er, Lumenos, you could also not screw up talk pages in the first place. "Reordering it" would probably consist of reverting to before you mucked it up. Nice work of applying your rather unique mental processes to a shared space. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 07:17, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ::Er, Lumenos, you could also not screw up talk pages in the first place. "Reordering it" would probably consist of reverting to before you mucked it up. Nice work of applying your rather unique mental processes to a shared space. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 07:17, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::Well I wish I'd have known how you both feel about this, before I went to all that effort. I suppose you could revert it, but Nx did much work on it since the first reordering. He was certainly aware of it long before he complained, as the edit history shows. I made it into a "debate map". Did you feel that it was misleading, biased, or hard to read? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:47, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | :::Well I wish I'd have known how you both feel about this, before I went to all that effort. I suppose you could revert it, but Nx did much work on it since the first reordering. He was certainly aware of it long before he complained, as the edit history shows. I made it into a "debate map". Did you feel that it was misleading, biased, or hard to read? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 07:47, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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Lumenos, whatever you mean by a "debate map" is not clear to others with plenty of wiki talk page experience. Turning it into something ''you'' think makes sense does not do respect to other editors and the format and style of their editing. A good rule to follow: don't edit others' talk page comments. Simply don't. Add your own, quote them, respond to the them, but leave their edits alone. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 23:38, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | Lumenos, whatever you mean by a "debate map" is not clear to others with plenty of wiki talk page experience. Turning it into something ''you'' think makes sense does not do respect to other editors and the format and style of their editing. A good rule to follow: don't edit others' talk page comments. Simply don't. Add your own, quote them, respond to the them, but leave their edits alone. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 23:38, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Your prayers have been answered. I've moved the [[Talk:RationalWiki/ | :Your prayers have been answered. I've moved the [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)/Debate maps|unfun house to a subpage]] and placed warning signs on the entry ways. BEWARE THE MADDENING [http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Ikilumen IKILUMEN]! Howevar, in my perception, the arguments I present in [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)#See also|the following sections]] were spot on: | ||
15 Edit wars | 15 Edit wars | ||
16 Similar wikis | 16 Similar wikis | ||
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:''I can see how it can be difficult to [[User talk:Nx|produce an "unbiased" article]] without blocking, when some editors are online more than others. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 10:28, 4 September 2009 (EDT)'' | :''I can see how it can be difficult to [[User talk:Nx|produce an "unbiased" article]] without blocking, when some editors are online more than others. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 10:28, 4 September 2009 (EDT)'' | ||
::''It's also hard to keep pushing your petty little agendas without blocking. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 10:37, 4 September 2009 (EDT)'' | ::''It's also hard to keep pushing your petty little agendas without blocking. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 10:37, 4 September 2009 (EDT)'' | ||
:I want to know my agenda! Are any of the following my "agendas" that you are referring to. These all relate to the [[RationalWiki]] article: | :I want to know my agenda! Are any of the following my "agendas" that you are referring to. These all relate to the [[RationalWiki (en)]] article: | ||
* Put the notice of the service outage and the top of the page. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | * Put the notice of the service outage and the top of the page. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
* Change it from saying "temporary..." to simply "service outage" (with a note right after that of when we were apparently told it was going to be back in service). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | * Change it from saying "temporary..." to simply "service outage" (with a note right after that of when we were apparently told it was going to be back in service). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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====More about Rpeh==== | ====More about Rpeh==== | ||
I googled "Rpeh" and found this apparent quote, "[RationalWiki] is worse than CP. At least over there you know there's going to be hypocrisy." Does this have anything to do with your reasons for being here today? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:46, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | I googled "Rpeh" and found this apparent quote, "[RationalWiki] is worse than CP. At least over there you know there's going to be hypocrisy." Does this have anything to do with your reasons for being here today? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:46, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:What didn't you like about [[RationalWiki]]? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | :What didn't you like about [[RationalWiki (en)]]? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:20, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:You don't seem to be active with that name at [[A Storehouse of Knowledge]]. You know that it is a "conservative" wiki that has a better recommended administration than [[Conservapedia]]? Probably less traffic however. :-( [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:46, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | :You don't seem to be active with that name at [[A Storehouse of Knowledge]]. You know that it is a "conservative" wiki that has a better recommended administration than [[Conservapedia]]? Probably less traffic however. :-( [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:46, 4 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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==removing talk page comments== | ==removing talk page comments== | ||
Please do not remove talk page comments as you did [ | Please do not remove talk page comments as you did [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWiki_(en)&curid=14774&diff=71123&oldid=71121 here]. I'm going to assume it was because of incompetence, and not malice. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:13, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Learn to use show preview and show changes please. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:15, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | :Learn to use show preview and show changes please. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:15, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::Do not remove information from the article as you did [ | ::Do not remove information from the article as you did [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ARationalWiki_(en)&diff=71115&oldid=71114 here]. As I told you, I was working on merging it. If you don't do controversial edits to the article, when they are reverted it won't remove your talk page comments. In the future I will try to undo your wandalism to the article, without reverting our talk page comments at the same time. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:17, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::I have explained my removal of the information. You have not explained it except claiming that my conventions don't apply here. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:18, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | :::I have explained my removal of the information. You have not explained it except claiming that my conventions don't apply here. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 04:18, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::Your "explanation" (rationalization) does not excuse censoring competing wikis from the RationalWiki talk page. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:23, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::Your "explanation" (rationalization) does not excuse censoring competing wikis from the RationalWiki talk page. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:23, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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::::::I suppose it possible that you believe these bizarre rationalizations. Those wikis have the same subject matter. I've got quite a lot of work to do to fix the latest mess we have made on the talk page. If you'll excuse me. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:31, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::::I suppose it possible that you believe these bizarre rationalizations. Those wikis have the same subject matter. I've got quite a lot of work to do to fix the latest mess we have made on the talk page. If you'll excuse me. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:31, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::::If they have the same subject matter, then they should be in the same category. That said, RationalWiki does not have one single subject matter - Conservapedia is still an important subject, and as far as I know, that is not the subject of those other wikis. [[User:Nx|Nx]] | :::::::If they have the same subject matter, then they should be in the same category. That said, RationalWiki does not have one single subject matter - Conservapedia is still an important subject, and as far as I know, that is not the subject of those other wikis. [[User:Nx|Nx]] | ||
::::::::I now think I should have been replying to this stuff instead of edit warring with Nx. We discussed this also [[Talk:RationalWiki#Related wikis discussion|here]], and after that [[User talk:Nx#You can trust_Nx...|Nx gave up]] and chose instead to [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#Enforcement against editors|label me]] and poop on WikiIndex :-(. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:16, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::::::I now think I should have been replying to this stuff instead of edit warring with Nx. We discussed this also [[Talk:RationalWiki (en)#Related wikis discussion|here]], and after that [[User talk:Nx#You can trust_Nx...|Nx gave up]] and chose instead to [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#Enforcement against editors|label me]] and poop on WikiIndex :-(. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 14:16, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
Also please learn what archives are for. If someone wants to continue a discussion there (I doubt it), they can bring it up on the talk page again and link to the previous discussion in the archive. Having two places to discuss things is NOT a good idea. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 05:32, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | Also please learn what archives are for. If someone wants to continue a discussion there (I doubt it), they can bring it up on the talk page again and link to the previous discussion in the archive. Having two places to discuss things is NOT a good idea. [[User:Nx|Nx]] 05:32, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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:::Thank you for clarifying that. I have been putting my policy suggestions in places other than the project page, because I am not an administrator, not because I am agreeing with any of it. I'm really confused here. I don't know if I am on the verge of being banned for excessive posts, or if I am welcome to help develop policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT) | :::Thank you for clarifying that. I have been putting my policy suggestions in places other than the project page, because I am not an administrator, not because I am agreeing with any of it. I'm really confused here. I don't know if I am on the verge of being banned for excessive posts, or if I am welcome to help develop policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::: Oh, you're welcome to help all right. But judging by the amount of text you post, I'd say you don't want to help, you want to dominate, and that is unacceptable. Now, I don't think banning is a solution, but you have created a conflict here, and it has to be resolved somehow. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 02:18, 27 September 2009 (EDT) | :::: Oh, you're welcome to help all right. But judging by the amount of text you post, I'd say you don't want to help, you want to dominate, and that is unacceptable. Now, I don't think banning is a solution, but you have created a conflict here, and it has to be resolved somehow. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 02:18, 27 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::It is a big relief that you do not intend to ban me. I believe conflict can lead to changes that are in "our" mutual interests. (By "our", I mean anyone reading this.) I am not sure whether you are referring specifically to the conflict between myself and the [[RationalWiki]] bureaucrats, about including some formulation of a criticism, or if I am involved in a conflict between administrators. (Perhaps there are discussions on IRC or somewhere I am not aware of?) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:17, 27 September 2009 (EDT) | :::::It is a big relief that you do not intend to ban me. I believe conflict can lead to changes that are in "our" mutual interests. (By "our", I mean anyone reading this.) I am not sure whether you are referring specifically to the conflict between myself and the [[RationalWiki (en)]] bureaucrats, about including some formulation of a criticism, or if I am involved in a conflict between administrators. (Perhaps there are discussions on IRC or somewhere I am not aware of?) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 12:17, 27 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::::Feel free to visit the IRC channel, if we could meet there it would be a great way to speed up the conversation. Can you suggest a time? I'm on UTC+3 for the next month or so, and I stay online most of the day. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:18, 29 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::::Feel free to visit the IRC channel, if we could meet there it would be a great way to speed up the conversation. Can you suggest a time? I'm on UTC+3 for the next month or so, and I stay online most of the day. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:18, 29 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::::I didn't see your invitation here until I checked the diff. You, Huw Powel and I, seem to be the only editors who don't always reply at the bottom of a section. If I replied to the comment that you replied to, I would put it under the first reply to that comment. Perhaps why I missed it. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 22:16, 3 October 2009 (EDT) | :::::::I didn't see your invitation here until I checked the diff. You, Huw Powel and I, seem to be the only editors who don't always reply at the bottom of a section. If I replied to the comment that you replied to, I would put it under the first reply to that comment. Perhaps why I missed it. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 22:16, 3 October 2009 (EDT) | ||