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WikiIndex talk:Policies and Guidelines/Archive1: Difference between revisions
WikiIndex talk:Policies and Guidelines/Archive1 (edit)
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==Proxima's (initial) support of criticism== | ==Proxima's (initial) support of criticism== | ||
''(Proxima is no longer an administrator, so I moved these comments from the project page to here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 23:50, 22 June 2010 (EDT))'' | :''(Proxima is no longer an administrator, so I moved these comments from the project page to here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 23:50, 22 June 2010 (EDT))'' | ||
Are the articles on wikis to be sympathetic, critical, both, or "neutral"? ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] | Are the articles on wikis to be sympathetic, critical, both, or "neutral"? ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] | ||
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::This sort of policy sounds like it might work here, if y'all agree. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] | ::This sort of policy sounds like it might work here, if y'all agree. ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] | ||
:::It's cumbersome at [[Wikinfo]] but it's better than not allowing criticism at all.[[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:34, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | :::It's cumbersome at [[Wikinfo]] but it's better than not allowing criticism at all.[[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:34, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::I actually would have preferred entire pages for criticism like [[User:Lumenos/ | ::::I actually would have preferred entire pages for criticism like [[User:Lumenos/WikiIndex %28unwritten%29 policies#Bureaucrats|MarkDilley suggested]] but I'm not sure if that is possible while leaving the articles [[OpenEdit]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 23:50, 22 June 2010 (EDT) | ||
==Misc issues== | ==Misc issues== | ||
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:::I think the general policy here is to simply ''describe'' wikis, not to engage in petty arguments about their worldview. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 07:14, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | :::I think the general policy here is to simply ''describe'' wikis, not to engage in petty arguments about their worldview. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 07:14, 1 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::It doesn't look like Proxima has any serious intentions of leaving, so the subject of this thread is concluded, as far as I am concerned. I will quote your accusations on your talk page, and respond there. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 05:32, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::It doesn't look like Proxima has any serious intentions of leaving, so the subject of this thread is concluded, as far as I am concerned. I will quote your accusations on your talk page, and respond there. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 05:32, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
---- | ---- | ||
I applaud your attempt at making clear to everyone what our policies and guidelines are. | I applaud your attempt at making clear to everyone what our policies and guidelines are. | ||
All too often one person thinks one action is the obvious common-sense right thing to do, and that one thing is, and always has been, the policy; while someone else thinks the same thing about some conflicting action. | All too often one person thinks one action is the obvious common-sense right thing to do, and that one thing is, and always has been, the policy; while someone else thinks the same thing about some conflicting action. | ||
Best to get everyone on the same page before some emergency erupts. | Best to get everyone on the same page before some emergency erupts. | ||
However, although I think "documented rules" are better than "unwritten rules", | However, although I think "documented rules" are better than "unwritten rules", I think a more important principle is "Keep it simple". Also known as [[wp:Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep]]. | ||
I think a more important principle is "Keep it simple". | |||
Also known as [[ | |||
Is there is a better wiki somewhere for discussing the *potential* kinds of rules that a wiki *could* set up? | Is there is a better wiki somewhere for discussing the *potential* kinds of rules that a wiki *could* set up? One that could calmly discuss the pros and cons of a particular policy, and its impact if all/most/some/none new wikis adopted it. Perhaps [[MeatballWiki]] ? --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 00:28, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
One that could calmly discuss the pros and cons of a particular policy, and its impact if all/most/some/none new wikis adopted it. | |||
Perhaps [[MeatballWiki]] ? | |||
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 00:28, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | |||
:Parts of it may be appropriate at MeatballWiki, but much of it is specific to this wiki and its editors and administration. I'm responding to some conflicts amongst the administration and editors here. I've gotten some support from Proxima both here and on my talk page, and no objections thus far. Again, I apologize for my embarrassing blunders on your talk page. I'm usually not ''that'' absent minded. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:40, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | :Parts of it may be appropriate at MeatballWiki, but much of it is specific to this wiki and its editors and administration. I'm responding to some conflicts amongst the administration and editors here. I've gotten some support from Proxima both here and on my talk page, and no objections thus far. Again, I apologize for my embarrassing blunders on your talk page. I'm usually not ''that'' absent minded. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:40, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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::I put a notice at the top saying, "'''For a few simple guidelines, see [[WikiIndex:Guidelines]]. For other guidelines, see [[:Category:Guidelines]].'''" There is not much there however. People get fairly heated with this stuff and I think there is a need to address issues of how to properly go about attempting to "force" one's will, when people don't agree. So I see policy solely as a means to resolving conflicts. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:54, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ::I put a notice at the top saying, "'''For a few simple guidelines, see [[WikiIndex:Guidelines]]. For other guidelines, see [[:Category:Guidelines]].'''" There is not much there however. People get fairly heated with this stuff and I think there is a need to address issues of how to properly go about attempting to "force" one's will, when people don't agree. So I see policy solely as a means to resolving conflicts. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:54, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::I don't mind if you want (me) to move some or all of it, but one problem is that it would give me some work to do because I may fix all the "interwiki" [[WikiIndex: | ::I don't mind if you want (me) to move some or all of it, but one problem is that it would give me some work to do because I may fix all the "interwiki" [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines|links I created, to it]]. (I've created links to specific sections in it.) I do that to divert people's aggression, into a constructive means of building consensus. So when a squabble breaks out, I send someone the link and I say, here Genius, you know how everyone should act make up some rules for us. :-) Which they usually don't do, but thus far I've been pleased with the progress of one wiki article. Someone who was protective of the wiki, agreed to a criticism section and they actually posted it themselves. They also have been allowing a link to a sort of "rival wiki". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:03, 3 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
== How to do this sort of thing == | ==How to do this sort of thing== | ||
You talk on the talk page, find areas that people agree on, and eventually make the "article". The way this is being done is a disaster. A mess. And Lumenos is linking to it as a "policy" page on user talk pages. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 01:02, 6 September 2009 (EDT) | You talk on the talk page, find areas that people agree on, and eventually make the "article". The way this is being done is a disaster. A mess. And Lumenos is linking to it as a "policy" page on user talk pages. [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 01:02, 6 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Find me something closer to a policy page and I will link to that. It clearly states the lack of clear policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT) | :Find me something closer to a policy page and I will link to that. It clearly states the lack of clear policy. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 03:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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::::"maybe no one cares what ''you'' want" I'm looking for where I said that, was it the edit comment? Yeah, sorry, that Lummykin guy gets on my tits with his often incomprehensible approach. | ::::"maybe no one cares what ''you'' want" I'm looking for where I said that, was it the edit comment? Yeah, sorry, that Lummykin guy gets on my tits with his often incomprehensible approach. | ||
::::I guess part of the "disaster/mess" comment is a result of my being involved in working out policy pages on their respective talk pages on a wiki that is more active than this one. We used a draft version in the project page, and headers in the talk page that made it clear what was being discussed in each section, and it worked well, and left a clear record behind of how the project page came to say what it says. I guess you guys are just used to working in a way that seems very foreign to me. Where might I find more information about this mode of working? Oh, and where is this "original wiki" I keep reading about? Best regards, [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 17:06, 11 September 2009 (EDT) | ::::I guess part of the "disaster/mess" comment is a result of my being involved in working out policy pages on their respective talk pages on a wiki that is more active than this one. We used a draft version in the project page, and headers in the talk page that made it clear what was being discussed in each section, and it worked well, and left a clear record behind of how the project page came to say what it says. I guess you guys are just used to working in a way that seems very foreign to me. Where might I find more information about this mode of working? Oh, and where is this "original wiki" I keep reading about? Best regards, [[User:Huw Powell|Huw Powell]] 17:06, 11 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::Is there something stopping you from going to [[ | :::::Is there something stopping you from going to [[WikiIndex talk:Blocking Policy|an official policy discussion page]] and doing what you suggest? Or is mine just a bit '''too interesting for Huw to resist''' ;-)? [[User:Lumenos|Lunemos]] 15:01, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::What I find lacking in say, Wikipedia's policies: | :::::What I find lacking in say, Wikipedia's policies: | ||
:::::*No reliable sources, for their claims. It's a policy about what some powerful editors would ''like'' "the policy" to be. Doesn't necessarily reflect how the machine actually functions. Which brings me to my next point. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:03, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | :::::*No reliable sources, for their claims. It's a policy about what some powerful editors would ''like'' "the policy" to be. Doesn't necessarily reflect how the machine actually functions. Which brings me to my next point. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:03, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::*Failure to distinguish between stated "policy" and the actual behavior of the administration or editors. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:03, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | :::::*Failure to distinguish between stated "policy" and the actual behavior of the administration or editors. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 15:03, 12 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::This page is mostly not my recommendations on policy. It is an outline of issues that have been sources of conflict here. There are many links and quotes to what I have found the administration saying or doing. You can post your "policy recommendations" in talk pages, if you wish. I would think you might have better luck posting them on this "policy article", but, then again, when you do that, it makes it look like more of a legitimate collaborative project, doesn't it? It is understandable that this would be a fear of yours, given my interest [[WikiIndex: | :::This page is mostly not my recommendations on policy. It is an outline of issues that have been sources of conflict here. There are many links and quotes to what I have found the administration saying or doing. You can post your "policy recommendations" in talk pages, if you wish. I would think you might have better luck posting them on this "policy article", but, then again, when you do that, it makes it look like more of a legitimate collaborative project, doesn't it? It is understandable that this would be a fear of yours, given my interest [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#How sympathetic or critical.3F .28Who decides.3F.29|creating criticism pages for controversial wikis]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:43, 9 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
By the way, how ''do'' you feel about the [[RationalWiki]] article (and those other four wikis) having pages for constructive criticism? The clock is ticking and you never know what Dilley may spring on us next. You might consider what happened the last time y'all just ignored his recommendation and continued in your squabbling. And you might consider [[WikiIndex: | By the way, how ''do'' you feel about the [[RationalWiki]] article (and those other four wikis) having pages for constructive criticism? The clock is ticking and you never know what Dilley may spring on us next. You might consider what happened the last time y'all just ignored his recommendation and continued in your squabbling. And you might consider [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#How sympathetic or critical.3F .28Who decides.3F.29|one of his other recommendations (which I support, if that matters)]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:57, 9 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
[http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex%3APolicies_and_Guidelines&diff=70905&oldid=70843 This is how I choose to react to Dilley's decision to move those articles to talk pages]. He has spoken in that location before; maybe he will respond there. I think he has more incentive to consider my questions, in that location, rather than when you post un-constructive complaints on talk pages. So that is ''my way'' of doing this sort of thing. Good luck in yours. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:43, 9 September 2009 (EDT) | [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex%3APolicies_and_Guidelines&diff=70905&oldid=70843 This is how I choose to react to Dilley's decision to move those articles to talk pages]. He has spoken in that location before; maybe he will respond there. I think he has more incentive to consider my questions, in that location, rather than when you post un-constructive complaints on talk pages. So that is ''my way'' of doing this sort of thing. Good luck in yours. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 04:43, 9 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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::These "policy negotiations" may serve only as an agreement between myself and anyone I am having a conflict with. Or my proposals might not garner much interest. That is not a failure as far as I am concerned; I enjoy doing it just for the mental exercise and to understand wiki policy, morality, law, etc. I probably shouldn't go into my grandiose views on the potential of wikis, as I'm sure y'all think I am an obsessed nutjob, without me adding more fuel to the fire. (-; [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT) | ::These "policy negotiations" may serve only as an agreement between myself and anyone I am having a conflict with. Or my proposals might not garner much interest. That is not a failure as far as I am concerned; I enjoy doing it just for the mental exercise and to understand wiki policy, morality, law, etc. I probably shouldn't go into my grandiose views on the potential of wikis, as I'm sure y'all think I am an obsessed nutjob, without me adding more fuel to the fire. (-; [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
== Previous contents were moved == | ==Previous contents were moved== | ||
The above discussion is relevant to the content of the project page before Dilley "seconded" Bob suggestion of replacing the page with a sentence. It was very long and many prolific editors and administrators commented on it. Dilley has asked that I slow down, but I may be permitted to develop the page further. It can now be found at [[User:Lumenos/WikiIndex policies (and drama)]] ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:03, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | The above discussion is relevant to the content of the project page before Dilley "seconded" Bob suggestion of replacing the page with a sentence. It was very long and many prolific editors and administrators commented on it. Dilley has asked that I slow down, but I may be permitted to develop the page further. It can now be found at [[User:Lumenos/WikiIndex policies (and drama)]] ~~ [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 11:03, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:While I am flattered that my comments now grace the project page, it is possible that a little more consideration might have been in order before they were unilaterally imposed.--[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 14:05, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | :While I am flattered that my comments now grace the project page, it is possible that a little more consideration might have been in order before they were unilaterally imposed.--[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 14:05, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
::Well, is it better than before? I don't aim for perfection, only improvement. I plan to merge in administrative comments from the original. I'm not really sure what you or Dilley want, but feel free to revert, merge, or do whatever. Any "unilateral" edit in a wiki is subject to peer review and alteration. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:03, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | ::Well, is it better than before? I don't aim for perfection, only improvement. I plan to merge in administrative comments from the original. I'm not really sure what you or Dilley want, but feel free to revert, merge, or do whatever. Any "unilateral" edit in a wiki is subject to peer review and alteration. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:03, 14 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
== Irrelevant content == | ==Irrelevant content== | ||
"Spam and irrelevant content will be mercilessly deleted." | "Spam and irrelevant content will be mercilessly deleted." | ||
:Since I have been critical of article protections, I've been accused of "spamming" Recent Changes, by [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491 Dilley] and then [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThis_is_not_the_solution&diff=71588&oldid=71587 Felix]. Ordinarily I would think Felix' rules are not in reference to what I was doing, but I'm not sure, given [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThis_is_not_the_solution&diff=71649&oldid=71591 this (enraged?) reply]. "Assume good faith." That would be nice. But my question is about the "irrelevant" content. Are you referring to talk pages, or only articles? It sounds sorta uum.... over the top, to say we are going to '''"mercilessly"''' remove something that is merely irrelevant. It is just weird after being accused of trolling and all these things. It is kinda intimidating. Maybe it is not meant to be. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 22:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | :Since I have been critical of article protections, I've been accused of "spamming" Recent Changes, by [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491 Dilley] and then [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThis_is_not_the_solution&diff=71588&oldid=71587 Felix]. Ordinarily I would think Felix' rules are not in reference to what I was doing, but I'm not sure, given [http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThis_is_not_the_solution&diff=71649&oldid=71591 this (enraged?) reply]. "Assume good faith." That would be nice. But my question is about the "irrelevant" content. Are you referring to talk pages, or only articles? It sounds sorta uum.... over the top, to say we are going to '''"mercilessly"''' remove something that is merely irrelevant. It is just weird after being accused of trolling and all these things. It is kinda intimidating. Maybe it is not meant to be. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 22:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | ||