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==Explanation please== | |||
I am late to this. Can you explain what is going on? - please use this [[talk page]] to do it. ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | I am late to this. Can you explain what is going on? - please use this [[talk page]] to do it. ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | ||
:I will. [[User:Nx]] was [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] for removing [[spam]]my links to [[Liberapedia]] and various inaccuracies and repititions on the [[RationalWiki]] article; Proxima also protected the article to keep her version up. Nx emailed the people in charge and tried to get [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima]] stripped of her rights, but when there was no response, someone started mass [[vandal]]ism to try and attract some attention. [[ | :I will. [[User:Nx]] was [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] for removing [[spam]]my links to [[Liberapedia]] and various inaccuracies and repititions on the [[RationalWiki]] article; Proxima also protected the article to keep her version up. Nx emailed the people in charge and tried to get [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima]] stripped of her rights, but when there was no response, someone started mass [[vandal]]ism to try and attract some attention. [[Special:Contributions/92.233.174.117|92.233.174.117]] 06:22, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
I gave a link to [[Liberapedia]] as that wiki also has material critical of [[Conservapedia]] and I know many readers of the [[RationalWiki]] article will like that type of information. They called that [[spam]], well I've now added another link [http://cpmonitor.wordpress.com/ Digging the Dirt on the Lunacy that is Conservapedia] with better material about problems with Conservapedia. I only found out about that second website this morning and when I was under pressure I didn't think to add it. I hope the links are less spammy and more acceptable. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:07, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | I gave a link to [[Liberapedia]] as that wiki also has material critical of [[Conservapedia]] and I know many readers of the [[RationalWiki]] article will like that type of information. They called that [[spam]], well I've now added another link [http://cpmonitor.wordpress.com/ Digging the Dirt on the Lunacy that is Conservapedia] with better material about problems with Conservapedia. I only found out about that second website this morning and when I was under pressure I didn't think to add it. I hope the links are less spammy and more acceptable. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:07, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::It's a bit too late for that now. Anyway, would you please come to irc to discuss this: http://webchat.freenode.net/ , type wikiindex into channel [[ | :::It's a bit too late for that now. Anyway, would you please come to irc to discuss this: http://webchat.freenode.net/ , type wikiindex into channel [[Special:Contributions/Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you|Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you]] 07:14, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
I added the link about two hours after I found out about it and about half an hour after the pressure was off me so that is not late. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:23, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | I added the link about two hours after I found out about it and about half an hour after the pressure was off me so that is not late. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:23, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::You added the link to Psy's blog today. After the whole mess. In an attempt to make your link to [[Liberapedia]] look less like blatant advertising. And keep in mind that we didn't remove every link to Liberapedia, it was there with the other places RWians went to (although noone went to LP, guess why?), we just removed the advertisement | :::You added the link to Psy's blog today. After the whole mess. In an attempt to make your link to [[Liberapedia]] look less like blatant advertising. And keep in mind that we didn't remove every link to Liberapedia, it was there with the other places RWians went to (although noone went to LP, guess why?), we just removed the advertisement | ||
:::Also, unblock me please, and join us at IRC. [[ | :::Also, unblock me please, and join us at IRC. [[Special:Contributions/Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you|Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you]] 07:26, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::Several [[user]]s or several [[sockpuppet]]s of the same user first insisted on getting the [[RationalWiki]] article their way if they could, then when I protected that article they started general [[vandal]]ism. I hope I've cleared it all up. As far as I know they're all [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] but the user or users are experts at ban evasion and range blocks may be needed if it restarts. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:19, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ::Several [[user]]s or several [[sockpuppet]]s of the same user first insisted on getting the [[RationalWiki]] article their way if they could, then when I protected that article they started general [[vandal]]ism. I hope I've cleared it all up. As far as I know they're all [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] but the user or users are experts at ban evasion and range blocks may be needed if it restarts. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:19, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:First, I apologize for the vandalism. I will clean up everything on my own. The issue is that Proxima Centauri is abusing her powers and reverting and protecting any edits to [[RationalWiki]], [[Liberapedia]] and other articles. She claims that removing content is a blockable offense. If you look at her edits at RationalWiki, you'll see that's an absurd claim, for example, look at [ | :First, I apologize for the vandalism. I will clean up everything on my own. The issue is that Proxima Centauri is abusing her powers and reverting and protecting any edits to [[RationalWiki]], [[Liberapedia]] and other articles. She claims that removing content is a blockable offense. If you look at her edits at RationalWiki, you'll see that's an absurd claim, for example, look at [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=RationalWiki&diff=69045&oldid=69043 this], which contains two wrong dates, unnecessary quoting of the linked blog post and comment (I've summarised the content instead, and linked to the post), and her speculation about when the site would come back and a sentence before that does state when the site will come back. Only getting the right date there was a struggle. But her main problem seems to be that I and others have removed a paragraph advertising Liberapedia. Then there's [[Liberapedia]], which is her own wiki. I tried to improve her writing, but she reverted me without explanation and locked the article for a month. [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Liberapedia&diff=69117&oldid=69073]. [[Category talk:Active administrators of this wiki]] also contains a previous incident during which she abused her powers on [[RationalWiki]] to pursue a personal grudge. [[Special:Contributions/65.60.37.195|65.60.37.195]] 06:26, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::I'll help with the vandalism, by the way. [[ | ::I'll help with the vandalism, by the way. [[Special:Contributions/Phantom Hoover2|Phantom Hoover2]] 06:27, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
==Assume good faith== | ==Assume good faith== | ||
So - I am starting from this point. I know we are in a mess and I am late - but that is were I would like to start. [[User:Proxima Centauri]] has done a lot of work here and for that I am grateful. | So - I am starting from this point. I know we are in a mess and I am late - but that is were I would like to start. [[User:Proxima Centauri]] has done a lot of work here and for that I am grateful. | ||
:Yet she doesn't assume good faith. She has now blocked [[ | :Yet she doesn't assume good faith. She has now blocked [[Special:Contributions/Phantom Hoover2|Phantom Hoover2]] who has helped revert the [[vandal]]ism. | ||
::BtW, don't unblock Phantom Hoover2, unblock [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]]; I'm fed up with using my neighbour's WiFi. [[ | ::BtW, don't unblock Phantom Hoover2, unblock [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]]; I'm fed up with using my neighbour's WiFi. [[Special:Contributions/70.84.211.82|70.84.211.82]] 06:36, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
She may have done a lot of work, but that doesn't excuse her behavior. She failed to assume good faith when Phantom Hoover removed the offending paragraph in [[RationalWiki]], then she [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] me without warning with the justification that since I've edited Phantom Hoover's talk page, I should know that removing content is a blockable offense. She did not justify any of her reversions. It seems she didn't even read the edits she reverted, because she then asked a question that she would know the answer to had she read the edit. [[ | She may have done a lot of work, but that doesn't excuse her behavior. She failed to assume good faith when Phantom Hoover removed the offending paragraph in [[RationalWiki]], then she [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocked]] me without warning with the justification that since I've edited Phantom Hoover's talk page, I should know that removing content is a blockable offense. She did not justify any of her reversions. It seems she didn't even read the edits she reverted, because she then asked a question that she would know the answer to had she read the edit. [[Special:Contributions/Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you|Please unblock Nx and his IP, thank you]] 06:39, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
==I want a cooling off period== | ==I want a cooling off period== | ||
[[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] - will you accept that? ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] - will you accept that? ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | ||
:Yeah, but can you unblock [[User:Nx]] (who is the one who really didn't deserve his [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|block]]), his [[IP address]], and block ID #586, which is my home IP. [[ | :Yeah, but can you unblock [[User:Nx]] (who is the one who really didn't deserve his [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|block]]), his [[IP address]], and block ID #586, which is my home IP. [[Special:Contributions/Phantom Hoover2|Phantom Hoover2]] 06:45, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Nx's IP has block ID #576. He's the one who you should be addressing all of this to; I just got tangled up in it. [[ | :Nx's IP has block ID #576. He's the one who you should be addressing all of this to; I just got tangled up in it. [[Special:Contributions/Phantom Hoover2|Phantom Hoover2]] 06:47, 24 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
I appreciate that. I will try to sort through stuff and check back in later. ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | I appreciate that. I will try to sort through stuff and check back in later. ~~ [[MarkDilley]] | ||
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:Hope I'm not overstepping some invisible boundary here. Looks like we could just do this without bugging anyone. I could always move it to my wiki if whoever doesn't want it here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:54, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :Hope I'm not overstepping some invisible boundary here. Looks like we could just do this without bugging anyone. I could always move it to my wiki if whoever doesn't want it here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 00:54, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:[[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]], I think that now you are being unfair. Let's look at the whole business this way: what objective lasting damage has [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] done to the wiki project? If it's just blocking of the user accounts and several articles, then the other admins should just unblock it if they deem it suitable, and let's move on over this thing. If PC is only accused of making some folks' adrenaline rush to their heads... personally, I'd rule "Not guilty". :) Is there something I haven't noticed? | :[[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]], I think that now you are being unfair. Let's look at the whole business this way: what objective lasting damage has [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] done to the wiki project? If it's just blocking of the [[user]] accounts and several articles, then the other admins should just unblock it if they deem it suitable, and let's move on over this thing. If PC is only accused of making some folks' adrenaline rush to their heads... personally, I'd rule "Not guilty". :) Is there something I haven't noticed? | ||
:Also, in my personal experience, nobody is given admin rights without previously demonstrating understanding of and dedication to the cause of the project. Therefore I have always found accusations of "power abuse by the admins", especially coming from newly registered users, suspect. I don't say they can't be right. I just say that an admin ''can do more than a regular user''. Isn't the point of being an admin to steer the project towards its purported goal? --[[User:Koveras|Koveras]] 06:06, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :Also, in my personal experience, nobody is given admin rights without previously demonstrating understanding of and dedication to the cause of the project. Therefore I have always found accusations of "power abuse by the admins", especially coming from newly registered users, suspect. I don't say they can't be right. I just say that an admin ''can do more than a regular user''. Isn't the point of being an admin to steer the project towards its purported goal? --[[User:Koveras|Koveras]] 06:06, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
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:Yes I noticed that. I'm wondering if it is working or if you are not enjoying the attention or something. Seems a bit odd, that you would bring ''that'' up in the middle of the policy page, of all places. It is sorta relevant, in that this is what motivated much of this, but you could speak in general terms, and discuss policy on that page if you don't want to bring more attention to that info. It's really kinda cute, but I hate to think you are suffering over this. Of course I have no way of knowing that. I'm a little paranoid myself. Sometimes I think you are all playing some joke on me. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :Yes I noticed that. I'm wondering if it is working or if you are not enjoying the attention or something. Seems a bit odd, that you would bring ''that'' up in the middle of the policy page, of all places. It is sorta relevant, in that this is what motivated much of this, but you could speak in general terms, and discuss policy on that page if you don't want to bring more attention to that info. It's really kinda cute, but I hate to think you are suffering over this. Of course I have no way of knowing that. I'm a little paranoid myself. Sometimes I think you are all playing some joke on me. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:I imagine those people feel frustrated and powerless and that is why they are "resorting" to being "mean" to you. I don't know how this whole thing started (I probably don't care). I just wonder if we can't move forward somehow. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :I imagine those people feel frustrated and powerless and that is why they are "resorting" to being "mean" to you. I don't know how this whole thing started (I probably don't care). I just wonder if we can't move forward somehow. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:The problem as I see it, is this place is running in..what do they call it?... headless chicken mode! There is no policy but people talk about "[[troll]]ing" in reference to say, deleting something, and they accuse you of illegitimate [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocks]] when the closest thing to policy there is says "no deleting". So I suggest we work together and write some [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines|policy]]. There is no point in me doing that myself, of course it means nothing if the admins aren't going to follow it and it is not democratically legitimate if it doesn't have community support. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :The problem as I see it, is this place is running in.. what do they call it?... headless chicken mode! There is no policy but people talk about "[[troll]]ing" in reference to say, deleting something, and they accuse you of illegitimate [[WikiIndex:Blocking and banning policy|blocks]] when the closest thing to policy there is says "no deleting". So I suggest we work together and write some [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines|policy]]. There is no point in me doing that myself, of course it means nothing if the admins aren't going to follow it and it is not democratically legitimate if it doesn't have community support. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:If you only want to try to resolve the specific conflicts you are having recently, I would suggest doing that here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :If you only want to try to resolve the specific conflicts you are having recently, I would suggest doing that here. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::Right, let me make entirely clear the circumstances surrounding Proxima's name. On RW and several other sites, she made an account using her real name. She later stopped using this account, and switched to Proxima Centauri; however, she said several times on LP that she was the same person (and any idiot could see that anyway, because they both had the same writing style and strange obsession with the Magdalene Laundries). This was duly noted on [[RationalWikiWiki]]. Proxima didn't like this, and rather than ''denying'' that the username was her real name, complained on RW. Since we didn't deep burn all references to her name, she had a strop and left. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 16:47, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ::Right, let me make entirely clear the circumstances surrounding Proxima's name. On RW and several other sites, she made an account using her real name. She later stopped using this account, and switched to Proxima Centauri; however, she said several times on LP that she was the same person (and any idiot could see that anyway, because they both had the same writing style and strange obsession with the Magdalene Laundries). This was duly noted on [[RationalWikiWiki]]. Proxima didn't like this, and rather than ''denying'' that the [[username]] was her real name, complained on RW. Since we didn't deep burn all references to her name, she had a strop and left. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 16:47, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::Well what I was referring to is people bringing the name up on [[talk page]]s, etc, like to smite. I'm not intending to be judgmental as to the ethics of doing that... PC is such an interesting person we must keep talking and talking about them. :) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:38, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :::Well what I was referring to is people bringing the name up on [[talk page]]s, etc, like to smite. I'm not intending to be judgmental as to the ethics of doing that... PC is such an interesting person we must keep talking and talking about them. :) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:38, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::Where did we bring it up? [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 17:43, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ::::Where did we bring it up? [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 17:43, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
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:What controversial wikis where it's not usual to assume good faith on do you hold power? The only one I can think of is RW, and you were explicitly called out on your block-happy behaviour. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 15:05, 28 August 2009 (EDT) | :What controversial wikis where it's not usual to assume good faith on do you hold power? The only one I can think of is RW, and you were explicitly called out on your block-happy behaviour. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 15:05, 28 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
[[User:Phantom Hoover]] has started insulting [[User:Lumenos]] as well as insulting me, see [ | [[User:Phantom Hoover]] has started insulting [[User:Lumenos]] as well as insulting me, see [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy&curid=18619&diff=69767&oldid=69762&rcid=74722 here]. I would like to warn him or block him a second time but you seem to assume good faith even when problem [[user]]s are upsetting other users. You decide what to do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:'''Insulting?''' What? I pointed out that zombie computers aren't likely to be used on this wiki when any determined [[vandal]] would just use proxies or Tor. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 07:33, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :'''Insulting?''' What? I pointed out that zombie computers aren't likely to be used on this wiki when any determined [[vandal]] would just use proxies or [[:Category:Tor|Tor]]. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 07:33, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
<blockquote>You can secure your router well with WEP. Anyway, how many zombie computers are there going to be attacking Wikiindex? Think sensibly.[ | <blockquote>You can secure your router well with WEP. Anyway, how many zombie computers are there going to be attacking Wikiindex? Think sensibly.[https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=WikiIndex_talk:Blocking_Policy&curid=18619&diff=69767&oldid=69762&rcid=74722] </blockquote> | ||
That's insulting. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:56, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | That's insulting. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:56, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Very well. Show me a justified example of vandalism from a zombie computer. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 09:02, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :Very well. Show me a justified example of vandalism from a zombie computer. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 09:02, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
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:::Wait are you a dude? :-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | :::Wait are you a dude? :-) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:59, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::Yes, but I've spent several days trying to convince people that she is block-happy, and it's a huge relief for someone to say that. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 17:00, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ::::Yes, but I've spent several days trying to convince people that she is block-happy, and it's a huge relief for someone to say that. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 17:00, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::::I suppose you mean someone who isn't a RW regular. Well I hadn't seen it before, but in PC's defense, she didn't actually block, but it suggests that she may have before for something that minor. You could direct us to the evidence. Like [ | :::::I suppose you mean someone who isn't a RW regular. Well I hadn't seen it before, but in PC's defense, she didn't actually block, but it suggests that she may have before for something that minor. You could direct us to the evidence. Like [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page= the block log] and the blocks that you feel are illegitimate. I'm pretty exhausted at the moment so I may be able to convince myself to go to bed now. I'm not saying she is a bad sysop until some [[editor]]s are actually willing to establish a [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines|policy]] and we see if she and they will adhere to that. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:57, 29 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::::::She blocked [ | ::::::She blocked [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Proxima+Centauri&page=User%3ANx Nx] for changing the [[RationalWiki]] article to remove advertisements for [[Liberapedia]], two conflicting incorrect dates and various erroneous statements, like the thing about the backups. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 04:13, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
(I've already written the following but I really have no idea whether this is supposed to be a consensus based wiki or not. I suppose I may have to go around asking all the administrators if they would support petitions, consensus, etc, but we can't really assume they will. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) ) | (I've already written the following but I really have no idea whether this is supposed to be a consensus based wiki or not. I suppose I may have to go around asking all the administrators if they would support petitions, consensus, etc, but we can't really assume they will. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) ) | ||
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::Alternatively/additionally you might make a policy regarding administrators with conflicts of interest. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ::Alternatively/additionally you might make a policy regarding administrators with conflicts of interest. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:Next make these into a petitions which are subpages of the policy page, for example, | :Next make these into a petitions which are subpages of the policy page, for example, <tt>WikiIndex:Notability/Links to similar wikis petitions</tt> or <tt>WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines/Administers with conflicts of interest petitions</tt>. Have any supporters leave their dated signature on the petition. It may contain more than one proposal, even conflicting proposals but at some point all signatures should be updated to the latest version of the petition and it should no longer be edited after that. These petitions are to be used as guides/justifications for the policy pages, which should remain [[:Category:OpenEdit|OpenEdit]] IMO. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:[ | :[[wp:Wikipedia:Canvassing|Canvas]] to rally community support for your policy, to prove its worth. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 06:55, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:If a [[sysop]] does not abide by this policy in the future, follow [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#Enforcement against administrators|these instructions for making a request of enforcement of policy]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:29, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | :If a [[sysop]] does not abide by this policy in the future, follow [[WikiIndex:Policies and Guidelines#Enforcement against administrators|these instructions for making a request of enforcement of policy]]. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 08:29, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
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:Followed you from where? They have no contributions here. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 12:39, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | :Followed you from where? They have no contributions here. [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]] 12:39, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
:What exactly is a "[[troll]]" in this context? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:22, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | :What exactly is a "[[troll]]" in this context? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:22, 30 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
::So your solution is to immediately label everyone a troll and shoot on sight? Also, how did this user show you that mediation isn't the way forward? [[User:Nx|Nx]] 12:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT) | ::So your solution is to immediately label everyone a troll and shoot on sight? Also, how did this [[user]] show you that mediation isn't the way forward? [[User:Nx|Nx]] 12:59, 31 August 2009 (EDT) | ||
==Next steps== | ==Next steps== | ||
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:Do you have a plan as to how long to keep it this way? Are we trying to edit the article to a point where we have consensus on it, before moving it back out? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:34, 7 September 2009 (EDT) | :Do you have a plan as to how long to keep it this way? Are we trying to edit the article to a point where we have consensus on it, before moving it back out? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 09:34, 7 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:: I also regret letting this get out of hand. It appears at least one [[sysop]] is no longer active here[ | :: I also regret letting this get out of hand. It appears at least one [[sysop]] is no longer active here[https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=User:Proxima_Centauri&diff=prev&oldid=70795], apparently as a result of this conflict over the WikiIndex [[RationalWiki]] page and my sad attempts to first ignore it and later flailing about to Do Something about it. | ||
:: I'm not sure what the best approach is now. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 01:28, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | :: I'm not sure what the best approach is now. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 01:28, 10 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::I'm not sure there was any way for you to prevent things getting "out of hand" and I think you have done more than any of the rest of the administration, to help resolve conflicts here. But there is only so much you can do when it is not your problem you are trying to fix. [[User:Nx|Nx's exit was a little more uum dramatic]] ;-). I made mistakes but ultimately it is his choice if he doesn't want to work it out. They were both very helpful in their way but, when they didn't get their way, they became controlling and demanding, instead of seeking a workable solution such as arbitration, or to offer their terms of a peace agreement (policy). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:30, 13 September 2009 (EDT) | :::I'm not sure there was any way for you to prevent things getting "out of hand" and I think you have done more than any of the rest of the administration, to help resolve conflicts here. But there is only so much you can do when it is not your problem you are trying to fix. [[User:Nx|Nx's exit was a little more uum dramatic]] ;-). I made mistakes but ultimately it is his choice if he doesn't want to work it out. They were both very helpful in their way but, when they didn't get their way, they became controlling and demanding, instead of seeking a workable solution such as arbitration, or to offer their terms of a peace agreement (policy). [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:30, 13 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::I don't think it will ever be clear to you, what you should do, unless you can get feedback from the community of readers, | :::I don't think it will ever be clear to you, what you should do, unless you can get feedback from the community of readers, [[editor]]s, and other administrators. How can you know the solution when it isn't your problem? That is what the policy development page is for. My opponents have an understandable concern that my way of thinking is weighted more heavily on that page. I'm not sure they have really read it, but perhaps a different version could gain broader support. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 17:30, 13 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::As for the present issue, I have already written some questions before I saw your post here. (These questions are for you, Dilley, or any other admins who want to answer.) I will post them here: | :::As for the present issue, I have already written some questions before I saw your post here. (These questions are for you, Dilley, or any other admins who want to answer.) I will post them here: | ||
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:::(The reason I put my signature on every paragraph is so that you can insert a reply under any paragraph, should you wish to do so. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:25, 13 September 2009 (EDT)) | :::(The reason I put my signature on every paragraph is so that you can insert a reply under any paragraph, should you wish to do so. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:25, 13 September 2009 (EDT)) | ||
I've left messages with all the [[ | I've left messages with all the [[sysop]]s that have activity this year, requesting that they vote to unprotect the articles. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 22:05, 13 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
''I am considering locking the whole wiki down while sysops figure this out and would like to hear what others think about that... ~~ [[MarkDilley]] [ | ''I am considering locking the whole wiki down while sysops figure this out and would like to hear what others think about that... ~~ [[MarkDilley]] [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491]'' | ||
:<Oh crap! Dad's home.> (-: I don't think you'll need to do that, Cap'n. You've handed out some clearer orders now and I think everybody's gonna get in line. (I think that is probably all you have to do instead of protecting article pages.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | :<Oh crap! Dad's home.> (-: I don't think you'll need to do that, Cap'n. You've handed out some clearer orders now and I think everybody's gonna get in line. (I think that is probably all you have to do instead of protecting article pages.) [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
These are a few things that I hadn't heard your position until now. I think this is what you are saying: | These are a few things that I hadn't heard your position until now. I think this is what you are saying: | ||
* Don't be constantly editing talking pages (if you are crazy Lumenos :-)[ | * Don't be constantly editing talking pages (if you are crazy Lumenos :-)[https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491] [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
* Reverting edits or "fighting" (argument?) may result in the protection of articles or the whole wiki. [ | * Reverting edits or "fighting" (argument?) may result in the protection of articles or the whole wiki. [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:A_Storehouse_of_Knowledge&diff=prev&oldid=71498] [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491] [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
*It seems this dispute is not between the | *It seems this dispute is not between the [[editor]]s and each other, but rather that the administration does not want them using WikiIndex to have disputes. (Because some ''[[sysop]]s'' agreed with article protections, not those involved in conflicts with each other. And because you do not appreciate "fighting" being carried out here.) [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491] [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
*We are supposed to be agreeing on an article to put in mainspace (so there will be no more arguing about it). [ | *We are supposed to be agreeing on an article to put in mainspace (so there will be no more arguing about it). [https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491] [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
*No voting or petitions?[ | *No voting or petitions?[https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liberapedia&diff=prev&oldid=71492] [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 19:48, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
Is there anything else we can do to prevent the wiki being locked down? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:42, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | Is there anything else we can do to prevent the wiki being locked down? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 18:42, 15 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
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Yeah, how about you stop acting like a child, Lumenos? You won the [[Edit War|edit war]]. Can't you be satisfied with this and move on? [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 00:56, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | Yeah, how about you stop acting like a child, Lumenos? You won the [[Edit War|edit war]]. Can't you be satisfied with this and move on? [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 00:56, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:You, Huw Powel, and [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]], don't seem to appreciate my clumsy attempts to dissipate perceived aggression with dorky humor, so I guess I will try to be serious and straightforward. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | :You, Huw Powel, and [[User:Phantom Hoover|Phantom Hoover]], don't seem to appreciate my clumsy attempts to dissipate perceived aggression with dorky humor, so I guess I will try to be serious and straightforward. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:I didn't know the things listed above, until Dilley clarified those. (Still am not really sure, but afraid to ask for details.) I posted them here because I am not sure that others will check all those places to find the "rules". For example, I sent messages to all the [[sysop]]s saying that no one wanted the articles protected, not realizing that ''this'' dispute is actually between the administration and the | :I didn't know the things listed above, until Dilley clarified those. (Still am not really sure, but afraid to ask for details.) I posted them here because I am not sure that others will check all those places to find the "rules". For example, I sent messages to all the [[sysop]]s saying that no one wanted the articles protected, not realizing that ''this'' dispute is actually between the administration and the [[editor]]s (not the editors and each other). Was I the only one that found that confusing? There were actually a number of sysops that "voted for" the plan, at least when the proposal was first made. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:You say that I have won an edit war. I guess you mean that because [[User:Nx]] has apparently left, we are gonna have my criticism in the [[RationalWiki]] article? I think there would be less edit "warring" or debating, if there were clear inclusion policies or dispute resolution mechanisms. I understand that these may require more work than others are interested in doing. Not sure if I will be able to facilitate the creation of inclusion policies, especially if voting/petitions aren't going to be permitted. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | :You say that I have won an edit war. I guess you mean that because [[User:Nx]] has apparently left, we are gonna have my criticism in the [[RationalWiki]] article? I think there would be less edit "warring" or debating, if there were clear inclusion policies or dispute resolution mechanisms. I understand that these may require more work than others are interested in doing. Not sure if I will be able to facilitate the creation of inclusion policies, especially if voting/petitions aren't going to be permitted. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:I don't know what you mean by "move on". It could mean: | :I don't know what you mean by "move on". It could mean: | ||
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:[[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | :[[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 13:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:: You know very well what I mean. The latter. (Just so you can't say I didn't specify.) Lumenos, you're effectively just spamming now. This isn't getting us anywhere. As for what I mean, I've already stated my position elsewhere, but here it is again: I think criticism (as well as praise) should be allowed in articles as long as it's supported by arguments. As for dispute resolution mechanisms, what stops you from asking for a vote? Oh wait, you already did, and people ''did'' vote. Now someone simply has to act on it. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 14:41, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | :: You know very well what I mean. The latter. (Just so you can't say I didn't specify.) Lumenos, you're effectively just spamming now. This isn't getting us anywhere. As for what I mean, I've already stated my position elsewhere, but here it is again: I think criticism (as well as praise) should be allowed in articles as long as it's supported by arguments. As for dispute resolution mechanisms, what stops you from asking for a vote? Oh wait, you already did, and people ''did'' vote. Now someone simply has to act on it. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 14:41, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::You say, "the latter", so that only eliminates "go away". But now I'm wondering whether I am at risk of being disciplined somehow for posting ''anything'', which could be what you are calling "spam". Was that last post "[ | :::You say, "the latter", so that only eliminates "go away". But now I'm wondering whether I am at risk of being disciplined somehow for posting ''anything'', which could be what you are calling "spam". Was that last post "[https://WikiIndex.org/index.php?title=Talk:RationalWikiWiki&diff=prev&oldid=71491 spam]" by your definition? [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::There are two ways we can deal with conflict: | :::There are two ways we can deal with conflict: | ||
:::# You can spread [[wp:Fear, uncertainty and doubt|FUD]] and maybe anyone involved will get frustrated, leave, or become timid (without really knowing what is permissible). If whoever was hoping to get rid of Proxima and [[User:Nx]], then this would appear to be "working". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | :::# You can spread [[wp:Fear, uncertainty and doubt|FUD]] and maybe anyone involved will get frustrated, leave, or become timid (without really knowing what is permissible). If whoever was hoping to get rid of Proxima and [[User:Nx]], then this would appear to be "working". [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::# We can define clear inclusion policies and have petitions showing which [[sysop]]s and | :::# We can define clear inclusion policies and have petitions showing which [[sysop]]s and [[editor]]s agree with them. Of course, it is not my place to make this decision but I think WikiIndex would benefit from this course. [[User:Lumenos|Lumenos]] 16:23, 16 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::: Oh, for the love of... is there anything I can write here without you twisting my words and trolling, trolling, trolling? I'm trying to NOT act like an admin, in case you haven't noticed. I have some power here, and that means responsibility. But you're seriously abusing my patience. Consider this: if not enough admins have piped in, maybe it's because they don't want strict rules, and frankly, I don't see why any intelligent, responsible person would insist on having them instead of using common sense. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | :::: Oh, for the love of... is there anything I can write here without you twisting my words and trolling, trolling, trolling? I'm trying to NOT act like an admin, in case you haven't noticed. I have some power here, and that means responsibility. But you're seriously abusing my patience. Consider this: if not enough admins have piped in, maybe it's because they don't want strict rules, and frankly, I don't see why any intelligent, responsible person would insist on having them instead of using common sense. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
:::: Tell you what, I've just restored and unprotected the [[RationalWiki]] article. Don't make me regret this. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | :::: Tell you what, I've just restored and unprotected the [[RationalWiki]] article. Don't make me regret this. [[Felix Pleşoianu]] | <small>[[User talk:Felix|talk]]</small> 01:15, 17 September 2009 (EDT) | ||
[[Category:Orphaned talk | [[Category:Orphaned talk page]] | ||