Proposal:WikiIndex Pages on indexed Wikis

Proposal: WikiIndex Pages on indexed Wikis

In my opinion, it would be very helpful to suggest WikiNode-like pages within the wiki sites we list here as an entry point to manage the actuality of our contents by the users of those wikis themselves.

They and we will be better supported

• Wiki site name — detect whether the wiki site in question is listed or not, and under which name
• Wiki site data — sometimes the engines are so strange that we can not retrieve size or statistics or edit mode and so on... (for instance page count for DokuWiki engine based wikis).

I started a test on DseWiki[1] that was accepted.

What do you think about it? (please correct my lousy english whenever necessary) --Wolf | talk 07:02, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

Let me get this straight: you are suggesting we create a WikiIndex page on each of those wikis, so people will see them and become interested in updating their own entries back here. Felix Pleşoianu | talk 08:08, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

As a wiki administrator, I would not be pleased to see someone creating a page on my wiki without me knowing what the deal is. Unsolicited, non-topical content, particularly when related to an outside entity, is spam. Plus, many wikis (including my own), implement captchas that are triggered under certain circumstances, so your bot will need a special account to reliably write to the metadata page. Mind you, that's a step I'm perfectly willing to take for WikiIndex, along with limiting write access to the page to prevent some misguided soul from artificially inflating my site.--Short Circuit 21:27, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like a good idea to me. I assume we'll have a standard page, like for WikiNodes Wiki? -- Felix Pleşoianu | talk 08:08, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

Yes, that's what I want to say. --Wolf | talk 15:03, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

I like this idea. Let the people at that wiki update their own information, without having to come over to the unfamiliar-to-them WikiIndex.

So are you saying that, after the people at that wiki update their version of the page, sometime later the page about that wiki at WikiIndex would be completely replaced with their version?

Initially this could be done manually ... and it shouldn't be too difficult for anyone to create a "bot" that would do this if the remote wiki uses the MediaWiki syntax. (A little bit harder to translate if the remote wiki uses some other syntax).

Although I think it is a good idea, and I don't see any reason not to start implementing it right away, I have a few minor questions:

What happens when the remote wiki temporarily goes offline?

What happens if the wiki (or just its WikiIndex page) is temporarily read-only, and someone wants to write a comment on WikiIndex about it (perhaps about the fact that it is temporarily read-only)?

Each WikiNode begins with a brief description of the wiki it is on, and most pages here at WikiIndex also have a brief description of the wiki. Would it make sense to re-use the standard WikiNode page for this purpose, rather that inventing another standard name and trying to maintain several versions of the description?

--DavidCary 01:32, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

I would not duplicate WikiIndex stuff to the indexed wikis. A page on each wiki with the title WikiIndex would be enough. Each active contributor of the remote wiki can skip to WikiIndex and check if updates to the WikiIndex entry are needed. Maybe we could provide a boilerplate for the remote WikiIndex articles (maybe in the remote wiki syntax, one for each wiki engine) and they can copy 'n' paste. The content of the page should be mainly on WikiIndex and some infos on the entry there (=here!). We could introduce a backlink on each WikiIndex article if the described wiki has a link to it. We could start with some pages in open edit wikis. Step by step they will "get" it, and the rest will be done distributed (I hope so). --Wolf | talk 02:30, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

As long as care is taken to avoid raising suspicions of spamming, I think this could be really useful. — User:Sean Fennel@ 12:30, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

A suggestion: Give the page name a Meta: prefix. Having a namespace for such data would be, IMO, a good solution. Even better would be to support the $(Wiki name): prefix, but that might be asking too much. --Short Circuit 21:41, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

I think a prefix isn't nessesary for wikis that are open to the Wiki idea (look at our and their WikiNode and TourBusStop articles). Everyone who discovered the wikis wants more of that stuff, and must be interested in our WikiIndex. On the other side, you are right, there are wikis that are highly specialized to their topic. --Wolf | talk 02:49, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

I am not sure I understand what is being suggested here. With respect to maintaining the wiki pages in WikiIndex up-to-date, I suspect the onus is on the owners of the wiki sites. I say this because as far as I know WikiIndex is not 'automatic' (unlike [2]); people have to actively create a page for their wiki site in WikiIndex. Secondly, it would be good to copy the bot used by the guys at S23 (see for example [3]). They collect the raw stats each day to update their lists. This model could be used by WikiIndex in order to keep the 'pages' parameter as accurate as possible. --Carl McBride (talk) 04:59, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

One could also open "Special:ListUsers/sysop" on all > 28k wikis and then extract the User: page(s) being linked from there, and then paste the "advertisement"-text on those User talk pages. That doesn't look so much like spam then but should still notify all those wiki admins. I could probably provide a list of all Admin user_page links from my wikistats database as well. This is all just valid for MediaWikis though. I am also interested in more cooperation between WikiIndex and S23, f.e. linking to the according WikiIndex page from my stats and including my stats on your wiki pages,, or stuff like that. The problem is that we don't have globally unique names for wikis. - The guy from S23 wikistats. Mutante 03:53, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

I don't think I have fully understood the nature of a 'WikiNode'. Is it something more than an inter-connected directory listing of wikis? If not, then I think WikiIndex is ideal as it is. The main improvement could be to encourage a complete categorisation of the entries in WikiIndex. People can then navigate to related wiki via the category pages. However, like I said, as yet I am not sure of the WikiNode concept. Can anyone explain it to me in layman's terms? --Carl McBride (talk) 05:28, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm confused as well. Could you create http://www.ChicagoCoop.net/wiki/WikiIndex on my ChicagoCoop.net wiki, so I can see more what this means? TedErnst | talk 11:50, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

done, what do you think about it? --Wolf | talk 14:54, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

It seems spammy to me. I love the idea of contacting wikis. How can we do it in a non-spammy way? A while back I was working on the WikiNodes Wiki project here at WikiIndex, and we struggled with this same issue. How, for example, can we be of service to the wiki we're contacting? A WikiNode seems like a useful tool for each wiki. We can link back to WikiIndex, and their WikiIndex article from a WikiNode as well. That seems somehow less spammy than a WikiIndex article on their wiki. peace, TedErnst | talk 15:29, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

For me, it was great to discover WikiIndex. Ok, I don't want to press somebody to this opinion.

Maybe we could complete existing links to WikiIndex in other wikis with their own entry, thats smart and rather effective. A link to WikiIndex, on the other hand, should be on each wiki page "Wiki" all over the world, but we can leave this for other wiki people (in most cases) - good idea? --Wolf | talk 15:38, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

You don't like the WikiNode project idea? TedErnst | talk 15:43, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

I like the WikiNode project, and I like the TourBus project too, I think I've learned something in this discussion. Linking is a delicate topic, I believed in peoples proudness about their wikis, their page counts, vibrant-ness and so, it's like with google: if you would be the number one in search request you would link to google, right? --Wolf | talk 15:53, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, if it's what you want to do. I just am not sure why another page is needed, besides the WikiNode in order for people to learn about their own WikiIndex page. Do you know what I mean? TedErnst | talk 16:12, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

You are fully right, only my english is insufficient, to say it, I feel really well giving up this idea. I have largely enough to do with spammers, Wikipedias, TourBusStops and so on. --Wolf | talk16:20, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

AdvertisingEdit

Dear Wolf, I see now what you are driving at. However, I agree with TedErnst; it does look somewhat unsolicited. I would definitely drop the internal links; how many non-IT wikis have a page on CamelCase? Maybe a less intrusive form would be to create a 'stub' page for said wiki (i.e. seed the initiative) in WikiIndex, then leave a note on the wikis Talk:Main_Page. I suspect however that this is a huge task, for example, the chaps at S23 have a list of 28,857 wikis (see Wiki Stats). A pretty good robot script would have to be written, although it would probably be blocked by reCAPTCHA. I also suspect that a number of these wikis are 'wikis for a day', i.e. someone has downloaded the wiki software and played with it for a day, but then loose interest. At least with the present set-up at WikiIndex, having to write ones own page here is a type of filter, thus choosing wikis that are more 'serious'. --Carl McBride (talk) 05:09, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Now that I have 'got the idea' I have added a WikiNode page to my (really it is a wiki for everyone...) wiki SklogWiki. I have also updated the long unused 'wikinode URL' (until now I didn't know what it was for) parameter on SklogWiki's WikiIndex entry. Many thanks Wolf for educating me in the WikiNode 'way' :-) All the best --Carl McBride (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Hi Carl, Ted educated you (and me). I agree in not doing anything (in broad scope) outside WikiIndex. BTW: I didn't have "advertising" in mind, but it would be advertising. Have a good, day --Wolf | talk 07:02, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

SidebarEdit

Given the potential importance of the TourBusStop page, it may be worth adding it to the MediaWiki:Sidebar. --Carl McBride (talk) 11:55, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

I like it. Done. TedErnst | talk 12:24, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Hi Folks! Great discussion :-) A couple of links for possible understanding of these things: WikiNode wiki captured via Archive.org and ProgressionOfWikiOrganization — WikiNode was Lion Kimbro's wiki solution to the straight line of the WikiTourBus system. We experienced these very questions of spamminess when trying to figure out if we could place WikiNodes on other wikis. We added a link back to WikiIndex in those and thought it would be ok, if there was an invitation to a larger community of wiki folks. So I also think that a link to WikiOhana would be a great idea. Let me see if I can dig up that template for WikiNode — found it after 100 Random pages! Template:Wiki-Noding - MediaWiki boilerplate Best, MarkDilley

Current stuff is on odd-wiki-hive / 'wiki-net'. Mutante just pointed me to this page, I hadn't seen it, sry. MattisManzel 07:24, 29 December 2007 (EST)